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Quadruple C Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448
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Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2002 9:41 am Post subject: |
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[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-01 18:56 ] |
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screamertrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 170 Location: Washington State
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Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2002 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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I second David on that one. Maybe you should write a book, Roddy...
Thanks for explaining everything more in depth. I think everything is falling into place with the closed aperture setup. I think the breathing is coming along, too with the Science of Breath.
Thanks Roddy and have a good day,
Trevor |
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I Jazz 24 7 Regular Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 81 Location: Pacific Northwest
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Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2002 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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I second Trevor. Roddy should write a book. His advice is always appreciated and his website is terrific. David should write a book too, after 28 more posts that is. It would be a pity to stop short of 1,000. No matter what, keep posting, we need you.
brad
[ This Message was edited by: I Jazz 24 7 on 2002-07-08 19:59 ] |
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Emb_Enh Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 4:09 am Post subject: |
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Extra information.......
Ex - Maynard Ferguson trumpeter Nick Drozdoff goes into the science and math of the above premise in this excerpt taken form his website with his kind permission....
-------------------------------------------
John H. Lynch, the author of "A New Approach To Altisimmo Trumpet Playing,"
wrote an article in the International Trumpet Guild Journal for the February Edition in 1996. Anyone really interested in finding out more about his mpc. design ideas and theories about high note trumpet playing should get a copy and study it for themselves. What is presented here is an "interpretation" of the ideas set forth in his writing.
Many trumpet and physics teachers will blithely say that lip tension is the factor that determines the pitch that a trumpeter plays. They will say that as one plays higher, the lips must somehow be stretched tighter. I myself have made that same statement. While the lips do increase in tension for most players as they ascend in pitch, the notion that this is primary determinant of pitch is mistaken. Lynch points this out very nicely in his article, but I want to take a more direct look at it here.
Let's begin with the most rudimentary vibrating device that changes pitch with tension, a vibrating string. The accepted equation for the frequency of a vibrating string fixed at both ends is as follows:
f = (n/2L)(T/m)^. 5
Now the symbol ^.5 simply means "the square root." The variable "n" refers to the number of the harmonic. For example, the fundamental, or the lowest resonant frequency of the string has n=1. The variable "L" refers to the length of the string. The variable "T" refers to the tension of the string. Last, the variable "m" refers to the linear mass density, or mass per unit length.
Now that that is on the table, let's make a first order approximation of how the lips work. Let's assume that they behave very much like a vibrating string and follow a similar equation. What does this mean to the trumpeter?
Lynch's interpretation goes like this. Most good lead players can cover a range of four octaves or more. Octaves are multiples of powers of 2. That is, one octave is twice the original frequency, two octaves is 4 times the original, 3 octaves is 8 (two cubed) times the original and 4 octaves is 16 (2 to the 4th power) times the original.
Now if we assume that all of the basic parameters are held constant (the length, and the mass density) and vary only the tension and the frequency we can see that we are comparing n=1 to n=1 with a new fundamental frequency established by the higher frequency. Let's now take the ratio of the frequencies created when we do this.
f2/f1 = [(1/2L)(T2/m)^. 5]/[ (1/2L)(T1/m)^. 5]
Now we can see that the length and mass densities, which are all equal, cancel out, as will the coefficient of 2 on the L. We are left with the following:
f2/f1 = [T2^. 5]/[T1^. 5] = 16
Now this is exactly what Lynch has on page 53 of the ITG journal article. What does this end up meaning?
Consider only the tension side...
[T2^.5]/[T1^.5] = 16.
If we square both sides, we get the following:
T2/T1 = 256
This means that in order to produce a note four octaves higher that the trumpeter would have to stretch his lips to a tension 256 times greater than he started with.
"…Even if the lowest tension were only a few ounces, the highest tension would be over thirty pounds," says Lynch. Have you ever tried to pick up a thirty-pound bag with just your lips? Even for the most brutal trumpeter, this isn't a likely scenario.
Now Lynch goes on to say that the main factor in what drives the pitch up is the mass. Let's explore that a little more here. If we consider the same equation and control everything but the mass density we will end up with the following:
f2/f1 = [m1^. 5]/[m2^. 5] = 16
By the same analogy, we can conclude that by reducing the mass density by a factor of 256, we can achieve the four-octave skip. This is much easier to achieve than the 30+ pounds required to do it with tension.
Now it is very important to note here that this analysis is at BEST only an approximation. To me, it seems very unlikely that the equations that will result from the differential equations describing the forces in the lips will be the same, but it does seem likely that tension won't be the main factor in pitch determination.
The equation shown above was taken from Dr. Tom Rossing's book, "The Science of Sound", page 55. This is an excellent reference book for the physics layman. It is thorough yet understandable. QED _________________ Regards, Roddy o-iii
RoddyTpt@aol.com
"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD
[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method] |
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_bugleboy Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 2865
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 8:35 am Post subject: |
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A statement quoted by Roddy
"Now it is very important to note here that this analysis is at BEST only an approximation. To me, it seems very unlikely that the equations that will result from the differential equations describing the forces in the lips will be the same, but it does seem likely that tension won't be the main factor in pitch determination."
It seems that there is yet another attempt here to use scientific data incorrectly. I would call this BOGUS DEFINITIONS. It is kind of a cousin to BOGUS SCIENCE.
IMO, the term "tension," if used correctly, should describe all the forces, and the products of those forces, on the lips that are created by the flexing of the facial muscles.
One of these products is to increase and decrease the actual vibrating mass of the lips. The variable nature of the vibrating lip mass, VLM, must be accounted for by the only forces that can cause it to happen, namely the facial muscles. Tension is the correct term to use to describe these forces. But if tension is only used to apply to the lips as if they were a pair of pliers then another term, perhaps "flex," must be offered to give meaning to the scientific formula that is being discussed. Given the premise that the VLM is caused by the muscles of the face then the term "tension" should be the word that defines this muscular activity. If you choose to not use tension to have this meaning then a term that carries a more general reference to muscular activity must be presented. Do we need another term to describe this muscular activity that is causing the VLM to change? I don't think so. What we need is for people to use the English language correctly and to stop supporting the use of BOGUS DEFINITIONS to misrepresent science.
Therefore, the statement that, "but it does seem likely that tension won't be the main factor in pitch determination," is deceptive and contradictory. In the scientific formula that is presented, the variable VLM is credited with being the means by which pitch easily changes over large intervals. How this occurs has to be described someway. We can call it facial muscle activity, or it can be called facial muscle flex or it can be called facial muscle tension. But it has to be accounted for. The term "tension" SHOULD refer to the more general, "facial muscle tension."
Therefore, it is true that the muscular activity in the face (referred to as "tension" by many, but obviously not by all) is the determining factor in pitch. And it is FALSE to say, "but it does seem likely that FACIAL MUSCLE tension won't be the main factor in pitch determination."
Actually this posting of the mathematical formula for a vibrating string by someone who earlier on this page said,
"If science or another theory over time proves me wrong, I can't tell you how much I don't care. For me all this techie speak is totally unreal and even if there was ANY physical point that trumpet players could agree on as being DEFINATELY the way to go, I would still think of it as a visualisation and totally unreal ---"
is curious, indeed!
_________________
Charles Raymond
[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-08-02 15:02 ] |
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histrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 771 Location: Mobile, Al
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Nothing short of brilliant as always Charles. The Trumpetherald is fortunate to have you. It would not be the same without your contribution. Charles=truth. |
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tom turner Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 6648 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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On 2002-08-03 22:57, bachboy wrote:
histrumpet,
Get your lips off of his ass and quit being gay.
histrumpet=FAG
Adam
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_________________________________
Adam's other three posts on the forum are also a revelation. They speak for themselves. The username of Bachboy is apt. The other three:
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Posted: 2002-07-13 19:17
Cass,
You need to start showing some respect, you inconsiderate bastard. Maybe if you actually learned how to play the trumpet instead of drinking beer, you'd actually go far. Because you suck at trumpet so bad, you're forced just to come here and try to bad mouth all of us. Do us all a favor and leave the forum, NOW.
Adam Hancock
archangel_adam@msn.com
__________________________________________
Posted: 2002-07-13 19:26
i love pokemon. i played it for like 6 hours a day for 2 years. I finally beat red (and developed epilepsie), i'm working on blue right now, almost finished. Then, if my mommy lets me, I am gonna get Gold, maybe silver. i love my pikachu.
Adam
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Posted: 2002-07-13 19:40
I removed the laquer from my sacred BUNDY II with a steel toothbrush and some of my moms leomande. i know it sounds crazy but my mom makes some crazy lemonade and it will eat through anything, including your sorrows, at least that what she always says. I love my horn now, so nice and it even has a nice hint a tequila when you smell it.
Adam
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Posted: 2002-07-13 19:56
Cass,
You're right, why don't we make a separate section for high schoolers. And, at the time being, why don't we make a section for drunken retards like you, too? You might get a little lonely, so why don't you take Double Buzz and trmptmaster with you. How about Large Marge because she's going to hell, and take Bach 1 1/2C man with you too, since he obviously can't even speak english and doesn't belong anywhere else.
Also, what's your real name? Because if you are Al Cass, I just wanted to say your valve oil sucks. If it's not Al Cass, why don't you change your name to "Huge Ass" instead?
One last thing, Pokemon is cooler than you'll ever be.
Adam Hancock
archangel_adam@msn.com
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Al Cass Regular Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2002 Posts: 81 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Yes this confused young fellow is the current president of my fan club. Hopefully he will meet the right person to help him come out of the closet. |
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pair of kings Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2002 Posts: 1013 Location: York, PA
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Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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If someones writes a rude post, I don't think we need to have it reposted.
I saw them the first time - if someone else missed them, they were lucky. It doesn't seem necessary to repost other junk in order to make the point that he writes rude stuff. it is already obvious.
[ This Message was edited by: pair of kings on 2002-08-04 04:25 ] |
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Jeff Lambardino Regular Member
Joined: 05 Dec 2001 Posts: 81
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Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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Brilliant posts Charly you should write a BOOK!
I continue in amazement Roddy and his back slapping half truth telling buddies like QuadC are prompting him to write a book. What is the world coming to?
Roddy and Quad C have been caught in more cases of misinformation and outright ludicrious posting in a public place than should be allowed. Just look at their posting histories at how many times their misinformation and blanket statements have got them in trouble. Roddy and Quad have lost allcreditable stance among most intelligent posters and readers.
Even the poor guy that Roddy has tricked into beleiving his misinformation about the Bobby Shew quotes deserves to know the real truth.
The statement that tptguy made tells the whole story about the Shew/Roddy mentality and how poorly grounded it is.
The misinformed Shew quote falls apart in the premise that keeping the lips together hinders sound and allowing them open helps sound. What Shew and Roddy fail to tell you is that when depending on stretching to corner tension as the means for controling the closed setting sure it will hinder the sound. Replace that with the bunching that Mr Hunt advocated and the sound is not hindered. Go even further by adding chin bunching while pushing the upper lip down at the same time and you have a pliable embouchure without much need of the dreaded stretch or corner tension ala Superchops!
Therefore ala SC more lip (vibrating surface) is left in the center of the mouthpiece. This scientificaly is proven to be more capable of controlled sound in any register at any volume BECAUSE MORE OF THE VIBRATING SURFACE IS LEFT FOR CONTACT WITH THE AIR FLOW. If the tension is kept minimal a greater potential for sound exists than from allowing a more open aperture. If you want to argue with proven scientific principles then see ya in the debate forum. I will not waste time fighting the irrational likes of QuadC, Bacon, Roddy, Mohan, EBJAZZ, or any of their back slapping crew.
The out of tune situation and thin sound that Shew experiences is because his chops have opened so much that for them to continue to compress together BECOMES VERY DIFFICULT WITHOUT EXTREME TENSION DEPENDENT ON THE CORNERS AND STRETCHING THE LIPS and mouthpiece pressure. As opposed to bunching the chops leaving the vibrating source more free to vibrate and connect the upper and lower registers with much less thining of the lip muscle and tissue and superior control of intonation.
Jeff L
[ This Message was edited by: Jeff Lambardino on 2002-08-04 00:54 ] |
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Jeff Lambardino Regular Member
Joined: 05 Dec 2001 Posts: 81
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Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Bachboy posted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Turner (aka, mr mexi butt lovin) must be spending to much time having gay sex with huge ass becuase he can't count. He says there is 3 posts and then he post 4, what the hell? remove head from ass then post.
as far as huge ass goes, i don't want to waste the man power on his pathetic, man-loving, beer-guzzlin ass. He probably surfs the net standing up because he can't sit (you all know why). I'd love to meet you in person then no one would ever have to deal with you again. I'm surprised you wife/life parnter, Frank, hasn't hired a hitman yet.
It is FACT that 90% of the people on this forum are either gay or extremely stupid, or both as many of you know.
YOU CAN ALL EAT $HIT AND DIE FOR ALL I CARE, GREASY MEXICAN BASTARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Adam
ps:
if you kick me off the forum, i'll be back, BASTARDS!!!!!!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------
My recommendation is for Bachboy to be removed from this site and for all new registerants to be required to list a valid email address and their real name and city of residence before membership is allowed. This will cut down on the alias posters like Bachboy, (Locke aka John Mohan) and others.
Reposting a rude post is a good idea because the person who made it can go back and delete what they first said. Pair of Kings has done this before by blasting people and teachings before getting her facts straight before misrepresenting people who she wants to slam anyway. Pair of Kings of all people recently jumped into a fray not concering her at all just to retaliate against those who exposed her misconduct a couple of months ago. I see why she is sensitive to this issue.
Jeff L
[ This Message was edited by: Jeff Lambardino on 2002-08-04 01:15 ] |
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pair of kings Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2002 Posts: 1013 Location: York, PA
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Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff - you are right
I did get into one where I brought in another poster and embarassed him unintentionally. I had completely misunderstood his statements. I was wrong for using him to make a point which he had really nothing to do with. I wrote and apologized to him and he asked me if I would remove my post, which I did. unfortunately not before you cut and pasted it.
Why is it you always seem to want to bust my chops anyway? I don't have a need to retaliate against anyone. the only poster I slammed was Batman who was trashing everyone and a few overzealous SCers who seem jump on everyones ass as well.
I don't need or want to participate in this kind of crap. you probably have all of those old posts catalogued. I was wrong. I aplogized. You got me all wrong - sorry to tell you. You can think what you want. because Your opinion of me doesn't change me. |
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Jeff Lambardino Regular Member
Joined: 05 Dec 2001 Posts: 81
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:19 am Post subject: |
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Pair of Kings
You are the one who has kept the animosity going not me. Your reply says a lot about your motivation of continuing to blast certain people. Some people try to change and some do not. Once again you have no case to present that a group of people want to continue to bust you all the time. Once again you are falsely refering to a dedicated forum to cast blame on. Nothing on record hun. Go back to the drawing board and get your facts straight and read the replies that you refused to observe and consider PLEASE! You attacked the SC forum as a group that busts on other methods and that was a bold face lie. The SC forum is not a bashing ground like you misrepresented. You will find more bustin on other methods in the Claude Gordon Forum and by the Claude Gordon Moderator John Mohan. So pair of kings why were you not complaining in the CG forum when EBJAZZ chose to bash SC with his pathetic misrepresentations? There is on record a growing number of posters who show a continuing dislike for you. Don't blame me for that!
Jeff L
[ This Message was edited by: Jeff Lambardino on 2002-08-04 03:40 ] |
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pair of kings Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2002 Posts: 1013 Location: York, PA
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:40 am Post subject: |
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Excuse me, Jeff
I don't know what you are reading as far as my animosity. You continue to bring my motives into question. Why do you presume to know my motives. You seem to misinterpret most everything I post. Who have I blasted?? And I never said that any group of people wanted to bust me any or all the time. I said you and I meant you in particular were busting my chops and I said it because you just did. What facts do I not have straight.
and don't call me hon, please. That is endearing term; otherwise I don't find the tone of your messages to me endearing. so spare me that, okay.
As far as changing - the thing I have tried to change is to stay out of discussions like this one. The post that captured your attention this time around, I don't take back. I believe I can state my opinion same as anyone, whether you agree or not. all it is is my opinion. so don't worry about that, you can have your own opinions. All I am saying here and in the other fray that I involved myself in is that I got better things to do than read a bunch of negative hostile mud slinging.
If you want the last word now, fine. I am finished with this.
Quote: |
On 2002-08-04 03:19, Jeff Lambardino wrote:
Pair of Kings
You are the one who has kept the animosity going not me. Your reply says a lot about your motivation of continuing to blast certain people. Some people try to change and some do not. Once again you have no case to present that a group of people want to bust you all the time. Nothing on record hun. Go back to the drawing board and get your facts straight. PLEASE!
Jeff L
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pair of kings Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2002 Posts: 1013 Location: York, PA
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:43 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
There is on record a growing number of posters who show a continuing dislike for you. Don't blame me for that!
Jeff L
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everyone who dislikes me - here is your chance to chime in.
whatever..... |
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Jeff Lambardino Regular Member
Joined: 05 Dec 2001 Posts: 81
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2002 12:52 am Post subject: |
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Just like I said Pair of Kings.
Prove where I am always after you. The fact is that I have not made a response to you in months. Readers can observe and see the truth. However you have blasted me very recently in another thread but I did not even reply to your sarcastic response where you complain about me exposing John Mohan.
Your motives are plain to me by the evidence of what you post. It's here for all to see.
Jeff L
[ This Message was edited by: Jeff Lambardino on 2002-08-04 04:04 ] |
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pair of kings Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2002 Posts: 1013 Location: York, PA
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2002 1:02 am Post subject: |
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proof is right here
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On 2002-08-04 01:03, Jeff Lambardino wrote:
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Reposting a rude post is a good idea because the person who made it can go back and delete what they first said. Pair of Kings has done this before by blasting people and teachings before getting her facts straight before misrepresenting people who she wants to slam anyway. Pair of Kings of all people recently jumped into a fray not concering her at all just to retaliate against those who exposed her misconduct a couple of months ago. I see why she is sensitive to this issue.
Jeff L
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Jeff Lambardino Regular Member
Joined: 05 Dec 2001 Posts: 81
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2002 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Sorry Pair of Kings!
That does not qualify as proof. Until this very exchange I have not responded to you in months. However you have certainly had no problem in blasting me in other threads where I took a stand against a tyrrant who was attacking another playing system.
PK: "If you want the last word now, fine. I am finished with this."
JL: HHHMMM I thought you were finished a few replies ago. At least that's what you posted. Good thing that I quoted and copied it!
Jeff L
[ This Message was edited by: Jeff LAMBARDINO on 2002-08-04 04:31 ] |
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pair of kings Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2002 Posts: 1013 Location: York, PA
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2002 2:00 am Post subject: |
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yeah - I still have one more thing to say.
You keep referring to that last post where I supposedly blasted you. and you know what.. I wasn't blasting YOU. You said you were going to dig up a bunch of old negative posts and repost them so you could prove something. I just said PLEASE SPARE US. and why would you want to do that. the words 'injecting venom' were words You used - then I reused in my response.
No - again you are right - you are not always busting on me and no, haven't for months. I bet if I aggravated you, you would have. which I did with that last post apparently and not right away, but you found a way back to it. I will just say to you again that I think you are mistaken about my meaning or intent. I really don't care for any of this hostility regardless of what camp it comes from. my disdain for that has accounted for most of my own 'negative' posting. I admit I have said things that I wanted to take back. and I have retracted statements which I later thought better of. I am not saying I was never wrong for any of the things I said. I just think really that you misunderstand me. you just make these blanket statements about me and what I am trying to do and it isn't true.. |
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histrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 771 Location: Mobile, Al
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Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2002 4:03 am Post subject: |
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Jeff,
I don't think I am the only one who can see the truth in what you have written. A simple solution to the type of problems brought to the forum by those like bachboy is to have them submit a legit e-mail adress and only allow access after the e-mail adress is confirmed by the web administrator. Maybe require that person to answer a question he has submitted and e-mail it back. Until this minor problem is resolved it may be best to ignore anymore stupidity.
[ This Message was edited by: histrumpet on 2002-08-04 07:03 ] |
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