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DEBATING FORUM


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_bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2002 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Trumpet Herald needs a debating forum. One in which the INTENT is to discuss the merits and/or shortcomings of ideas pertaining to the trumpet.

Too often now posters make statements that they are either uncomfortable, unwilling or unable to back up. While other posters feel that statements need to have some reasonable grounds to be worthy of consideration.

If some level of disagreement arose over any particular issue, then the discussion could be moved over to the debating forum or simply dropped with a disclaimer from either poster that he/she isn't interested in debating the issue.
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4Him
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great suggestion. Some criteria could be established to keep the debate civil (unlike the ongoing free-for-alls we occasionally see), and those that want to participate or observe could do so.

Ken
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Nicholas Dyson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

excellent idea!
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2002 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB

Last edited by dbacon on Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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_bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Dave, I don't think the two are the same at all. You originally proposed a forum where people present pros and cons about a subject, and then sit back and are not required to justify in any way what they have said. I'm looking for a forum where two or more posters are going to present pros and cons about some issue AND identify the weaknesses and irrational or illogical positions of the differing statements. AND call upon the authors of these statements to clarify and/or defend their statements. In other words, back it up, Dave.

I see your proposal as a room where participants can go and say what they believe without necessarily offering any basis, rationale or evidence to back it up, sort of like what goes on now. Which is why I originally commented that what you were suggesting is already going on in all the forums.

But I can see why you would be one who would prefer the pro/con format as opposed to the debating format.
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Warbird
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, lets not turn this suggestion into a debate!!!!

What irony!!!!

Iesus Amate,
Joseph N. Pack
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB

Last edited by dbacon on Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Lee Adams
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2002 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good idea Charly!
I have for the most part stayed away from the open forum in recent months because not everyone is willing to back up their positions with evidences, sound logic, or mature respectful communications.

I have a great deal of respect for you Charly because you have tried to mainitain the posture of a real debate in many of the firestorms of opinions. I appreciate your tenacity to insist on truth, and clarity from other posters.
A real debate forum is a good idea where the posters "must" be willing to back up what they author other than just stating opinions.
An idea would be to require all threads to be started with some tangible evidence to prove or disprove something with, something other than a multitude of questions as threads from posters who use asking questions sometimes flaming as a means to gather information.
The authors should already have done some research before engaging or debating. I would suggest that Quotes from famous players and name droping should not be considered as valid evidence unless the author can defend it properly
It probably would need its own moderator in order to enforce the rules of a real debate and prevent the usual flame fest from happening.

Charly are you up for being a double moderator?

As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429

Lee Adams



[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2002-07-01 08:50 ]
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_bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2002 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Lee,

You are definitely maintaining much too low a profile on the forum these days, but I can appreciate how much longer you have been here than me. It's the unsupported positions (and the refusal to consider supporting them) that become tiring, and not the wrongness or irrationality of the positions per se, especially when the authors then insist on being taken seriously by the forum.

I'm not a good choice for moderator, though, because I would have to give TOO much lattitude to others in a discussion with me so as not to appear to be unfair. Then I'd be unfair to me.

But, perhaps 2 or 3 different moderators might be the solution, so if a moderator was involved in a debate, that particular debate would be moderated by the number 2 person. If number 1 and 2 were debating, there would be the 3rd moderator taking charge. I don't know. I'm sure there is a solution. But I do think the idea is long over due.
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Emb_Enh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2002 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If some level of disagreement arose over any particular issue, then the discussion could be moved over to the debating forum or simply dropped with a disclaimer from either poster that he/she isn't interested in debating the issue.

============================
Good idea!
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jgadvert
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2002 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A wonderful idea! Although, I'm sure that this idea is 110% different by design(vs. my Hardball suggestion) I fear you will ultimately end up roughly, in the same place. After all, what are people doing on hardball? ..discussing pros and cons...debating. Everything is kept friendly, if you'll notice.

Give the people what they want. Like it or not.
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[ This Message was edited by: jgadvert on 2002-07-01 16:21 ]
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_bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2002 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,

I think a debating forum would be more than just addressing hardball issues. (Is there really such a thing as a hardball trumpet issue or topic?) A debate is ideally where two or more people will present evidence and use reason to defend and/or support their position. Those participating would have to respond to such things as requests for clarification of their statements and proof in the form of some kind of evidence. Something that is given very short shrift at the present. The advantage of presenting your position clearly and then explaining it when called upon to do so is basically that it makes everyone aware that you know what you're talking about.

So it would be more than just stating issues. That's the talk part of it. In a debating format you have to walk the walk, too.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2002 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charly and company,

I think that it's a good idea, but only as a last resort.

The forum, as is, is fine with me, except the same three or four guys who constantly whine when anything they say is questioned.

In a sense, creating a debate forum is then bowing down to a lowest common denominator.

Somehow we've confused the idea that everybody has the equal right to post, with the idea that everybody's ideas are equal. It's not that way in real life, and it's not that way here (or on TPIN, thank God).

Personal experiences are one thing. You will probably attract little debate from expressing a personal opinion. But when you start to preach a philosophy, reposting the exact same words over and over, you've gone beyond simple personal experience. Now you've got an agenda, and hiding behind the "it's just my opinion" line doesn't cut it. If you're promoting yourself as an expert, either passively or actively, then whining about being challenged is beyond wimpy.

We've also lost the concept that when your ideas are challenged, it sometimes becomes necessary to rethink your original supposition and sharpen your reasoning. In that way, the guy who pushes you the most is often your best friend, as I have discovered a time or two.

The easiest way to not get into a debate is to simply not respond. Totally honorable! If being questioned on an internet forum threatens your manhood (or womanhood), and you get all upset, you may have serious ego problems.

I'm leaving things out about the benefits of debate, like the magic that sometimes happens when a thread takes an unexpected turn. Nick Dyson mentioned this on another forum.

Do I really need to go on?

Treat the person you disagree with as if they were standing right next to you. Are other rules (or forums) really necessary?

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net
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jgadvert
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2002 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As said before, there are many, many issues I would bring up(with some educational value)
that really arn't appropriate for the forum selections available. Don't let the word "hardball" lead to a negative connotation regarding issues selected. The experts(those with credentials on a topic) on those shows aggressively(in a civil manner)discuss political/social issues and back there words up. I find it fascinating (and educational!!) to watch two "experts" debate.. and with the ratings these shows get; so does the public.
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_bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2002 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey John,

Now you've got me curious. What would be an example of a topic that you feel would be inappropriate for any one of the already existing forums?
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funkymonkey
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2002 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds good....
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Quadruple C
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-19 23:42 ]
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trumpetherald
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm ... interesting idea. It could be the place where you don't wade in unless you're ready to swim with the sharks ... if you're interested, add a post here.

Editor
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Quadruple C
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-19 23:42 ]
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2002 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swim with the sharks?

Jeez Todd, you make a healthy debate sound kind of dark and scary!

Instead of that, how about "an invigorating and thought provoking exchange of ideas, aimed at reaching a greater understanding of the fundamental laws of nature which undergird the different aspects of trumpet playing."

Sure, debates can get heated, especially when participants get caught up in personalities, rather than staying focused on the ideas on the table.

But it isn't like that every time.

I think the pros of this issue far outweigh the cons. You have a great forum here, Todd. It has the potential to consistantly be a lot more than just a chat room.

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net
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