DEBATING FORUM

[Lee Adams]

Trumpetteacher1 and Bugleboy

I agree that the proposed debate forum can bring discussions to a new standard of clarity and truth. I don't see it as swimming with the sharks if the participants are bound to backing up what they author with solid evidences including scientific evidences.
For the posters who usually kick and scream with indignity everytime someone disagrees with them or when demands of proof and clarity are required of them then of course a "real debate forum" would be the equivalent of a sharks tank for those not willing to back up, prove or defend what they author.

The debate forum could serve as a very positive part of the forum and readers could evaluate the accuracy and credibility of the sea of opinions which are offered.
Ultimately a new standard of accuracy could be the result with fewer misleading things for readers to sort through.

As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429

Lee Adams




[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2002-07-05 13:13 ]

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-19 23:43 ]

[Emb_Enh]

Here's to a new standard of clarity and truth..
============================

.....but it MUST be PROVEN in SCIENTIFIC FACT beyond ALL doubt to the guy who asks the question, right? --- yeh right! ....no delete keys!....last poster wins! ....no wacky theories!

Todd your "swimming with sharks" analogy did'nt seem to go down too well with some, PROVE it - by SCIENTIFIC FACT --hehehe!



Roddy o-iii<O

PS ...just got back from ITG UK ...excellent playing from John Hagstrom / David Guarrier.
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[trumpetteacher1]

Lee,

Good points, as usual!

But if I were you, I would be careful about using the word "science." Some people are scared of it and always wrongly associate it with the word "fact."

Science is a process. The philosophy of science is about gathering evidence and arriving at a theory.

As you alluded, there are many ways to gather evidence. One way is to use electronic measuring devices. Sometimes this type of evidence is useful, sometimes not.

But I know that you clearly understand this, as you did not use the word "fact" in your post.

Others are not so clear.

So be careful.

Jeff
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

[zachenos]

"But if I were you, I would be careful about using the word 'science.' Some people are scared of it and always wrongly associate it with the word 'fact.'"

Or worse yet, they could combine the two ... "scientific fact." *shudder* =)


Zach

[Warbird]

Man, that would be great to have a debating forum...maybe then we wouldn't have as many people taking some of my comments so seriously!!! *lol*

I respect whoever takes the job as moderator though...I can just see how hairy it will get. Get a bunch of trumpet players arguing over something...that is a "Police: Do Not Cross" line for me!

Great idea, though. I vote for it!

Iesus Amate,
Joseph N. Pack
_________________
Holton MF ST307 -Marc Bobby Shew 1E10.3
Bach Strad. Mo 43 - Bach 1X
1929 Conn. - Bach 1X
1935 H. N. White Co. Cornet - Denis Wick 4B

[_bugleboy]

Some people seem to be enamored with using the word "science" and "scientific," ......... and yet always seem to avoid actually saying anything scientific. :lol:

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-07-07 02:47 ]

[Emb_Enh]

Still hurtin?---

FACT

"put the horn on your face and blow" - "Don't Think!!" - Carmine Caruso
============================

FACT

The Glottis is the primary valve that the air encounterson its journey.

============================

Confused? - If the cap fits wear it!
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[_bugleboy]

[Warbird]

I guess that it true...that sheds a new light on things. I take back what I said.

Perhaps if we are just more open to other people's ideas (even if they differ from our own) the TH could work better without debate.

Afterall, we all have a common goal that is to make music and become the best trumpet players that we possibly can...why should we debate?

Iesus Amate,
Joseph N. Pack
_________________
Holton MF ST307 -Marc Bobby Shew 1E10.3
Bach Strad. Mo 43 - Bach 1X
1929 Conn. - Bach 1X
1935 H. N. White Co. Cornet - Denis Wick 4B

[_bugleboy]

FACT

"put the horn on your face and blow" - "Don't Think!!" - Carmine Caruso

The impression I get is that these must be famous sayings authored by Carmine Caruso? Maybe the implication isn't that Carmine was the author, but it seems like a reasonable conclusion to me. Anyway, in this regard the truth is affirmative for the second one, but, sorry, negative for the first one. Carmine liked the first statement, but always gave credit to another famous teacher who used it with his students. So this is a little misleading either by intention or ignorance. Actually, in my experience with Carmine, he used the second one much more than the first one. Perhaps Roddy's experience with Carmine was that CC used them both equally. Before we can know that, however, Roddy will have to share his experience with CC with us.

Joseph said,

***** After all, we all have a common goal that is to make music and become the best trumpet players that we possibly can...why should we debate? *****

Why should we debate? The answer is because "making music and becoming the best trumpet players that we possibly can" are not the ONLY reasons many of us are on this forum. That's part of it, but it's not all of it. Regardless of the wishes of a few non-truth seekers, there is more, Joseph, much more that many of us are looking for. It's not a question of being open to ideas. The question is being open to ideas that are well founded, reasonable, logical, based on fact and rational thought, etc., etc. All of these things are the stuff that discussions or debates are made of. The difference here is that, since some members assert opinions as more than just opinion, many of us would like to see these opinions regarding the trumpet presented in a manner that would raise the credibility of those positions to a higher level than just opinion. Everyone has an opinion, that's easy; but very few can back it up. That's the hard part and the part that many of us are looking for in a debating forum. And the part that others fear so much.

Of course there are posters that don't want to have to back up what they say. That's fine. They have every right to their opinions. But when they start offering these opinions as universals or start making generalities about them, some of us would like a little more in the way of evidence and proof. The burden of proof is always on the one making the assertion. You say it, you prove it. Otherwise what is being said is nonsense or opinion. Opinions aren't nonsense unless they are being asserted as truth that applies to others. That's when the proving has to start.

It's pretty simple and also obvious why there are some who oppose a debating forum. They are afraid that they can't back up what they are saying. If that becomes the case then they would have to go back to the drawing boards regarding their beliefs and opinions. Something that seems to frighten them terribly.

Quad c said,

***** Wow Roddy, I like that Carmine Caruso quote. I didn't know he said or thought that, you learn something new everyday, well if you are open to learning something new everyday. *****

It's really a shame that Quad c doesn't get around the forums too much, since these types of Caruso statements have been made for some time over on the Caruso Forum. But then you have to have an open mind and be "open to learning something new everyday" to find that out by going to ALL the forums.

***** What a concept huh? Put the horn on your face and blow, don't think, now that makes sense doesn't it. *****

Yes. It's a great concept!! Just forget about all that yoga stuff and let the air take care of itself. "..........now that makes sense doesn't it." I AGREE!!!

***** That's some very nice clarity and truth from you Roddy *****

Poor Quad c just can't seem to get it right. The clarity and truth is not from Roddy, it's from Carmine Caruso. Roddy, for reasons unknown, has chosen to be the messenger of Carmine Caruso quotes. That's it. The truth and clarity are not coming from the messenger. The messenger may not have any understanding whatsoever regarding the message that he bears. He's just the messenger! But this is the kind of inaccuracy that is sooooo typical of many statements made that need to be clarified if we are truly looking for truth and clarity.

***** "..... thanks as always for your logic ...." *****

Logic? What logic? Roddy attributed two statements to Carmine Caruso that speak great truth, but these aren't Roddy's words. So how can it be that Roddy is being logical. If anyone has expressed any logic here it has to be Carmine Caruso. But for there to be any logic on the table, there must be different propositions whereby relationships can be described in terms of implication, contradiction, etc. That is not the case here. there are just two independent quotes,

1. "put the horn on your face and blow"
2. "Don't Think!!"

No relationships to be described in any manner, therefore no Science of Logic.

I think quad c is having a problem with definitions again.

***** ".....and good nature." *****

I agree. Roddy is always good natured and would never get upset or angry.




[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-07-08 02:39 ]

[Emb_Enh]

phew...that was a long winded one Charly. Very well analysed- honestly!

...I don't know why but I never feel the need to prove/back up/state as fact/ produce evidence -scientific or anecdotal to satisfy someone else. I'm only really trying to learn for ME!

The fact that I've said something in open forum is there for ALL to see. I don't need to produce more words to satisfy anyone---what makes you think YOUR so special Charly that you feel that you can by whatever means [inventing a debating forum] make me produce more words to convince YOU. Maybe it was'nt just me alone of course maybe you have this problem with a number of people...I dunno...AND don't care...'

I'm not that bothered about YOU...you have to sort yourself out...if some of my ramblings help YOU on the way great..if they don't...no neva mind...

If you don't like my theories which I use for MY success...I'm terribly sorry...ignore them.

You may not think I'm very successful by your standards...I don't know and don't care...I did pretty good with being at THE top theatre job in MY country as a resident player...NOT as a sub.

I have nothing to prove to ANYONE about playing apart from myself. That's why I like it...that's why I'm rambling on even now to you cos I enjoy even talking about it...pathetic is'nt it.....If us trumpet players would have been brain surgeons instead we all woulda made a lot more money AND got to play with some really cool gadgets!!! hehehe!!

If your worried that other people take too much notice of me and my words I can't help you there. That is up to them - and ONLY them!

If my ramblings help someone else have an aha situation on the way -great!! --if it does'nt never mind...but it's not MY responsibility to supply more info over and over and over again just to try to make YOUR position, OR YOUR understanding clearer Charly.

You seem to have a problem with air mass / air speed. It's not easy. Especially as in a previous post you say...

"For me, air speed has a lot to do with playing loud high notes, but that the pitch is achieved by the tension in the lips as determined by the muscles in the face. " [CR]

and....

"Air speed functions the same for all players. It is a force that controls dynamics and that it has nothing to do with playing high notes.
I conclude that volume of air and air velocity are the same thing."

AND more to the point ... I think that...

Carmine + you are right...it IS possible to play that way.

...I personlly don't do it that way....

In the spirit of more info sharing I'll try to give you my info in another way cos I like you...I really do...you have a great and keen mind and won't let go of a problem until you've really understood it YOUR way....

....BUT....that way of understanding is'nt mine...NOR should it be anyone elses...

WE ALL HAVE TO MAKE OUR OWN MINDS UP ABOUT PLAYING...THAT'S THE FUN OF IT!!!

HERE'S SOME MORE INFO FOR YOU TO PICK TO DEATH...I DON'T CARE...

Controlling and changing pitch is a matter of co-ordinating aperture/size, and or lip/ tension, air speed, internal compression and tongue level/oral cavity.

These variables will be used in differing combinations to differing degrees by players, with differing lip tissue. It is up to you to find what best works for you and your set up, it's no good asking somebody else what they do, they have'nt got your physiology. Here is a place to start!

Emphasising one variable more than another requires adjustment to the co-
-ordination of ALL the other variables. In some increased air speed will indeed necessitate a degree of greater lip tension depending on how close their aperture is to start. Increasing lip tension, will in turn, make it necessary to employ greater air speed to a degree. Aperture is NOT just up and down (that has to do with open VS closed),
it is also lengthwise (range) and front to back (amplitude or Volume).

However it is the players choice, which, of all the variables is the easiest to make their powerbase for increased range - Abs or Face?

The following works for me, give it a try. It does'nt matter one jot to me whether this can be proven scentifically or otherwise..it works for me...it MAY for you.

To increase pitch, I advocate creating greater air speed by using the abdominal muscles to blow the air out at high speed through a "small soft centered lip aperture." Some people think that by mostly adding facial or lip tension as in stretching a violin string they can get the same results. This creates stiffness of the vibrating surface. If you use primarily lip or facial tension for range you will affect your sound and eventually in playing the extreme high register you will need SO much tension that it get's too tiring and eventually will totally close off ALL lip vibrations resulting in no high notes coming out.

Which is more efficient?

Which has the greater potential for development?

The analogy of adding facial tension or tightening the lips to shortening a violin string, I believe, is ill conceived and does'nt take into account person to person varying lip tissue anyhow. When adding facial tension or tightening the lips, a stiffening occurs and you lose the soft center to a degree, which in turn is much harder for the air to pass through and create the vibration needed to produce the required pitch.

Creating a smaller opening/aperture just by closing the aperture right off the bat and passing the air under greater pressure from super internal compression through the soft but now more closed lip set point is the way to go. Manipulating the aperture by shape oval/round for tonal choice, lengthwise/drawstring for range and front to back for amplitude or volume. Basically, it's really easy to make the smallest opening required whilst "upping" the internal compression, [which I don't even start to use to any significant degree until high c] use the abs. and thereby as a consequence create greater air speed.

If, in tightening the abs as Brisbois said, you get a grip on the air stream [don't take in too much air to play high other wise it's harder to grip.] you can narrow the air column using the big muscles so your air will be going much faster. Some like to think of the squeezing the sides of a balloon.

The following measurements are only for visualisation.

Example:

1 litre of air blown with 15 lbs of pressure through a 2mm2 aperture produces G2

1 litre of air blown with 60lbs of pressure through the same 2mm2 aperture will result in greater air speed and G3.

The above is only an example....don't get excited by the numbers used...

Bigger pressure of air going through a small aperture = faster air.

If science or another theory over time proves me wrong, I can't tell you how much I don't care. For me all this techie speak is totally unreal and even if there was ANY physical point that trumpet players could agree on as being DEFINATELY the way to go, I would still think of it as a visualisation and totally unreal --- IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MUSIC and I don't think about this stuff at all while I'm playing except for a reminder to my self occasionally to keep a hold on a certain aspect if I think my sound is'nt right at any point.

If you get RIGHT INTO the music AFTER you have experimented at home with these techniques enough to satisfy your quest for a better way to play, it becomes a liberating experience to finally forget all the nonsense that used to swim around your head previously and concentrate on having fun with the instrument....it's what we started out for!!!

To summarise It boils down to a choice....

1. Use your facial muscles/lip tension [small muscles] to create tighter and tighter lip tension step by step to pass the air through a small opening, but thereby stiffen the vibrating flesh in the process and in turn make it harder to get the vibration.

2. Keep the lips soft but put them closer together under no extra tension and use bigger muscles [abs/diaphragm] in the body to blow the air out at a faster speed.

These muscles are not used much for a good proportion of the normal trumpet range so it's kind of like overdrive or 5th gear in a car [I use at around high c approximately] if a "close" lip setting is used

Or put another way....

3. Use your face to play and each time you add an octave to your range, build up these muscles, stiffening the vibrating surface of the lips in the process.

4. Use your Abs/diaphragm to play and each time you add an octave to your range, [remember they're not needed until high c so you've already got a head start] build up these muscles, keeping the lips soft allowing faster vibrations.

USE A SMALL SET OF MUSCLES ? [FACE]

USE A BIG SET OF MUSCLES? [ABS/DIAPHRAGM]

I think I'll take the bigger set .......you'll go further, easier....
*[see "chop muscle massing" chapter]

I'm not particulary interested, I have to be honest, in comparing the Trumpet to Violin or any other instruments modus operandi, after all the violin players have the same string properties [thickness/gauge of string] as one another , we ALL have different lip tissue with different 'personal' levels of vibration as a 'personal' starting point. Some people get too wrapped up in analysing a single component of the whole picture and try and use this as evidence as to a particular theories shortcomings.

There may be some merit in doing these type of comparisons but time spent in trying to prove or disprove theories by people who get excited by too many analagies in THIS manner I believe, is a distraction from OUR instrument.

My offerings above are to set the reader out on his/her personal journey of discovery and to give what I believe to be the best vantage point for air usage. Just one thing though - all the air on planet earth ain't gonna help you play extremely high easily if your chops are not in the right set up FOR YOU!!!!

So Charly ...my only premise here is to show that I'm a keen thinker like many on this forum.

It hopefully will show you and others [Jeff Smiley etc..] that I could have easily ignored you as Jeff suggested [I think]..I felt that I'd given enough info..previously to satisfy most..this is the best way I can describe to you and others how I perceive this small part of the trumpet playing picture and how it relates to MY big picture...

In a previous post you wrote...

"Don Jacoby may be right. His approach may employ air speed to induce higher notes. That's what everyone says. I have no idea how he does it because it is not the approach that I use. When I blow air faster, the note gets louder. But if Mr. Jacoby says that he can get higher notes that way, and others use that approach with success, then I wish them well. It just doesn't happen to be the way that I do it. " [Charly]

...well....wish me well also...I am at the moment playing THE best trumpet of my career...I LOVE IT.....and so you YOU!!

CONGRATULATIONS TO TODD ON A BLOODY FANTASTIC FORUM....ALL THE FORUMS ARE GREAT THOUGH ARE'NT THEY!!!!!

Charly you also have written....

"In my experience a good player takes ten years. Now, a little explanation of the ten years figure. Carmine went on to explain that he looked at it as 5 years to get the physical demands achieved and another 5 years to learn to use them musically. That's what he called a "good player."

...GREAT!!!!! --NOT LONG TO GO NOW THEN FOR ME....... [I've been playing 30 years]

==========================

Charly and Dave Bacon.....

"Q. But I'm not able to see where you have described what you mean when using the terms. Did I miss it? CR

A. What do you need, Charles. I would guess you have your own answers. What are they? I've given mine. What are your answers? It's just one small tool I use as I've described previously. Dave Bacon
=============================

So old pal, I guess that it's not just me that you need to squeeze extra info out of is it? ----go ahead keep asking.....but...when someone does'nt want to give any more info...it is'nt necessarily because they are confused/unsure, scientific/unscientific or indeed wimpey/wimpy [I know one is a burger!]...but that they may be ALL tapped out for a while.

THE BURDEN OF UNDERSTANDING THE ACTUAL CONCEPT OR THE ORIGINATORS PERCEPTION OF THE CONCEPT LIES WITH THE PERSON ASKING THE QUESTION.

AS to whether we have to be scientifically proven or not before we may state an opinion or not I'll leave up to the words of Jeff Smiley.

Jeff said in a previous post....

"All knowledge comes from subjective experience, which is a line straight out of the philosophy of science. It only becomes called "objective" when a lot of people agree. And sometimes those agreements have nothing to do with ultimate reality, as they may be heavily colored by the filters of belief. (but that's another story)." Jeff Smiley

...I just happen to be waiting for other people to agree with me...if they don't...it won't make ANY difference to me / my views / or the way I play.

As I said before....go ahead Charly you obviously really feel the need to have the last word....

....go ahead I promise I won't come back, no matter what/how/who calls me [or anyone else] names in a effort to get EVEN more info out of me.

I'm flattered that anyone should care about my thoughts or the effect they have on ANYONE let alone you.
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[redface]

[Lee Adams]

Redface

The physical mechanics required of playing the trumpet are certainly something that I can not disclaim.
In some areas of the physical aspects of trumpet playing mechanics very little research, logical thought or clarity exist in proving some theories,opinions and teachings. Players deserve to know if what authors in this forum offer as advice is solid in a "real debate"
I say this because for years I was misled by opinions of certain teachers about the physical mechanics of playing and my ability to play "music" suffered as a result.
I see those same opinions being offered even today with few people benefiting from them.

For a player who has had a breakdown in their playing (chops crashed and burned) to the degree of quiting the instrument. Charly and I and many others have suffered from this similar condition, and thats why we appreciate clarity and truth in teachings. We have gone down some dead end streets and want other players to have a better chance at improving with solid teachings.
Therefore backable teachings and ideas are very important. At least I have found that I can do a much better job as a teacher if I seek and share quality advice. I find great joy in a student only needing to see me once or twice and with the proper evaluation and advice applied to the physical mechanics often they can exceed years of being held back with a glass ceiling over them something that may have hindered them for years like, poor endurance, limited range etc....
Then their ability of playing music reaches an even more enjoyable level.

Many areas could be opened for debate on a variety of issues.
In fact Roddy has even opened the door on a suitable subject of air velocity and speed which he and Bugleboy were engaged in another thread. As I remember Roddy went as far as he wanted to go with the debate and stopped.
In this very thread Roddy has revived the debate with Charly and gave some extra perspective and states that he does not care if someone ever proves anything different and further declines to engage anymore on the topic.
However this is a good example of a good "real debate" topic if the posters are willing to learn more than their present perspective if someone else offered perhaps even more clarity, information, or more exacting research then the previous conclusion would become debateable as to its position of credibility.
This happens in many fields of study in our world and when a better understanding evolves through research and debate most people are glad.

As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429

Lee Adams



[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2002-07-08 11:44 ]

[Emb_Enh]

Lee writes>>>

>>>Many areas could be opened for debate on a variety of issues.
=============================

True...many have ...in the past...any further thoughts on this one....

The Bio-Feedback system....

....used employs sensors to detect whether muscle tissue is in a state of flexion, and perhaps to what degree it is being flexed(please correct me if I am wrong). You detected tension in the tissue under the jaw (part of the tongue muscle), and concluded that is was caused by flexion of other muscles in the embouchure. You further concluded that this flexion of the tongue caused it to "rise while ascending.....
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[Emb_Enh]

OOoopps!!---sorry--I was supposed to shut up...I'll try again...color me....gone!! ....
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[Lee Adams]

Roddy

You have pasted a question from a poster who obviously did not read my posts in that thread close enough.
The author of the quote dived out of the conversation with mention of not liking to take time to debate such issues and having a sick family member so I obliged him. I did not have time either to point out how he had misrepresented what I had stated in earlier posts. A later thread with more information has been on my back burner for a while and if we establish a debate forum would be a good time to do it. But until then.

No where in that thread did I say that I monitored the tension under the tongue with bio feed back sensors. My references of my most recent trip to Pro Therapy(while the thread was active) were concerning embouchure/facial muscles and personal observations of the tongue.
My studies and position on the interconnectivity of the muscles,fibres etc under the tongue with the embouchure/facial muscles are from 2 different research projects conducted in the medical, physiology, speech therapy community where fluoroscopes were used for visual verification of the tongue rising when various facial flexations were monitored including smile, pucker, chin bunching, One such study did sophisticated monitoring under the tongue and further verified what the fluoroscope showed them. The interconnectivity of the facial/ embouchure muscles and simultaneous rising of the tongue!
The tongue can be intentionally held down while flexing the facial muscles, but in the most natural of motions it rises with facial flexion types which we use in playing the trumpet.
Im presently on the waiting list at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta for myself and 2 other trumpeters for a Fluoroscope session which will include simultaneous monitoring of facial/ embouchure flexation while playing, as well as air speed measurements taken at the throat of the mouthpiece.
I have done the embouchure facial flexation tests and air speed both seperately and simultaneously in the past. Doing all three together will be a fun experiment. It will be sort of the maximum of scientific observations while playing.

As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429

Lee Adams


[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2002-07-08 13:42 ]

[_bugleboy]

Roddy,

CR: Over in the TONGUE=AIR VELOCITY? thread in the HIGH RANGE forum you likened our discussion to a “last poster wins” situation. This seems to be a common tactic to employ among certain TH members when they are unable to sort out there thoughts regarding assertions they are making. My questions, over there to you, were not uncivil and it seemed that your reply was a little sarcastic, but I just concluded that you were ending your participation on that issue. So I didn’t bother to respond. But for some reason you have now chosen to revive that discussion by posting it in two different forums, COMMENTS AND SUGGESTIONS and HIGH RANGE. And after exercising the copying and pasting technique, again you reiterate that the last poster wins. By reviving this issue of air velocity and range (by the way, from the things that you write it appears that you have a complete misunderstanding of the nature of muscular tension in the face and how it relates to lip vibration), you have made your statement about not posting any further a little meaningless. No offence, but, as long as the discussion stays civil, I prefer to discuss issues with people who are willing to back up their ideas. You don’t seem to be of a wont to do that.

You also brought up an exchange that I had with dbacon. In my experience, dbacon is probably the biggest offender in this area on the forum. He often makes interesting observations on the TH, but appears to have a total disregard for definitions and clarity. Which lends itself to never being contradicted, but also makes every opinion pretty meaningless.

You say,

RL: phew...that was a long winded one Charly.

CR: In my post, I simply asked for you to share your experiences with Carmine Caruso, since CC was who your post was about. You failed to ever address your relationship with Mr. Caruso in your latest post, and between all the copying and pasting posted a pretty long winded one yourself. ???????

If the debating forum ever gets under way, I would be happy to continue this and any other philosophical exchange with you. Right now it’s a one way street, since you have no desire to clarify or stay with a rational exchange.

RL: ...I don't know why but I never feel the need to prove/back up/state as fact/ produce evidence -scientific or anecdotal to satisfy someone else. I'm only really trying to learn for ME!

The fact that I've said something in open forum is there for ALL to see. I don't need to produce more words to satisfy anyone---what makes you think YOUR so special Charly that you feel that you can by whatever means [inventing a debating forum] make me produce more words to convince YOU. Maybe it was'nt just me alone of course maybe you have this problem with a number of people...I dunno...AND don't care...'

CR: I think your “good nature” has become a thing of the past, Roddy, quadc’s comment notwithstanding. There really is no need for the sarcasm and accusations. I don’t consider myself special, just looking for truth and clarity.

RL: I'm not that bothered about YOU...you have to sort yourself out...if some of my ramblings help YOU on the way great..if they don't...no neva mind...

CR: Sorting out usually requires clarifying issues and beliefs. What is difficult here is sorting out what other people believe.

RL: If you don't like my theories which I use for MY success...I'm terribly sorry...ignore them.

CR: I usually do, as I have told you before.


RL: You may not think I'm very successful by your standards...I don't know and don't care...I did pretty good with being at THE top theatre job in MY country as a resident player...NOT as a sub.


CR: Sounds like you had a good gig.

RL: I have nothing to prove to ANYONE about playing apart from myself. That's why I like it...that's why I'm rambling on even now to you cos I enjoy even talking about it...pathetic is'nt it.....If us trumpet players would have been brain surgeons instead we all woulda made a lot more money AND got to play with some really cool gadgets!!! hehehe!!

Cr: Yes, more money, but we would have had to pay a huge amount more attention to science, truth and clarity then goes on among trumpet players regarding sound production on the trumpet.

RL: If your worried that other people take too much notice of me and my words I can't help you there. That is up to them - and ONLY them!

If my ramblings help someone else have an aha situation on the way -great!! --if it does'nt never mind...but it's not MY responsibility to supply more info over and over and over again just to try to make YOUR position, OR YOUR understanding clearer Charly.

CR: Unfortunately, it’s not that simple. Many people disagree with your ideas and many others just don’t know what the heck you’re talking about.

At this point in your post you go on to revive the air speed issue and do a lot of copying and pasting and I read all of these things the first times you offered them. This is what, three – four – five times you’ve copied and pasted the same material? Any further discussion of air speed and lip vibration should be carried out on a level playing field ….. like a debating forum, even though you do seem insistent on keeping it going. My question is, would you be so insistent if this were a dedicated debating forum and NOT a debating thread in the COMMENTS FORUM?






[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-07-08 13:16 ]

[histrumpet]

This thread has made for some intresting reading, it has also revealed the true character of those involved. While some would like to paint Charles Raymond and others as troublemakers I choose to view them as the standard at which a forum should operate. This site should operate as a resource for players to use to improve their skills, that can't be done if false or misleading information is introduced by those motivated by greed. Roddy has made it clear that he is participating in this forum for himself and not to benefit anyone else. He also shamelessly pushes his web site and e-mails posters on the Trumpet Herald who are trying to resolve issues with their playing and offers on-line lessons, this in not an opinion, I have recieved them before. In the email he states he's just trying to make a few bucks, it is obvious that whatever that top job he has is paying it's not enough. His tactics of posting the same topic in other forums is an attempt to confuse the issue by bringing in others who would support his position regardless of what it was.

[Big Jake]

histrumpet
Your post is excellent Charly and other respectable posters carry a great deal of integrity with more readers than you might imagine. A standard has been set by Charly and others and it is a good one.
I saw the most amazing display of arrogance ever witnessed on TPIN recently. Roddy completely went bonkers insisiting that Sam Burtis needed to leave TPIN or he would.
Sam dismantled Roddy and some of his posts pointing them out to be illogical, irrational etc. Roddy went bonkers just visit the archive to see it don't take my word for it.
Here at trumpet herald Roddy demanded for Charly to answer only to the original thread starter and not engage in anything that occured within the thread. No need to look far to find Roddy jumping into conversations all over the place without strictly answering only to the first poster. Talk the talk then walk the walk please!
Roddy has also approached me in the past wanting to sell me on line lessons but he gets in dedicated forums and tells people to get em a real teacher but Roddy can teach online and its O.K. The motivations appear obvious.
No need to point out any of the mockery of other posters and sillyness designed as flame bait that Quad C and Roddy used in this thread which they have disguised as humor.
I would be accused of hostility of course.


Jake



[ This Message was edited by: Big Jake on 2002-07-08 14:54 ]