Another Lip issue/embouchure

[trjeam]

Ok here I go again with my embouchure doubtbs.

Well today I was practicing and I decided to tuck my bottom lip in and I did and I just blew I was and managed to nailed a high G above high C and i kept going and got to a high A about high C.

And I could feel that it was much easier to play high notes this way. But I could not play any low notes like the low F# I couldn't play. And tounging became very hard.

Anyway it really bothers me to know that there is a way for me to play high notes easily but that I can't switch embouchure A. because i don't know if I would be making a mistake and B. Because i don't know what I'm doing.

So I ask you people. Know that I have found that tucking the bottom lip makes my upper register playing easier does this mean that a embouchure change might help me?

With my normal set up I smash the horn in my face and playing high is not nearly as easy as when I use the tucking the bottom lip method.

Help me! I know that there is a easier way. I need to go to some kind of a lip teacher that will teach me what the proper way for me to put the horn on my mouth is.

Anyways thanks for any help or comments.

_________________
George Ayala

http://trumpeter.cjb.net
Trumpet Resource Site

[ This Message was edited by: trjeam on 2002-06-29 21:40 ]

[Nicholas Dyson]

Hey George
Look at it this way... Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you switch embouchures, you may find that the original embouchure worked better for you. If you do, switch back. If you don't switch in the first place, you'll beat yourself up, wondering 'coulda, woulda, shoulda'.

I know exactly what you're feeling, as I'm there myself. I've decided to take the plunge and give the Super Chops methodology a shot.

I'm not telling you to switch embouchures, or to keep the same one. I'm just saying... be willing to take a chance. The players that everyone knows and loves... clifford, dizzy, Maurice Andre, Bud Herseth.... didn't get where they are by staying careful. For me, it's worth the possibility of wasting 6 or 8 months to POSSIBLY grow big. If it doesn't work out, I'll go back to the old way....

Ain't nuthin' but a party!

_________________
Nick Dyson
Seattle, Washington

[ This Message was edited by: nicholas dyson on 2002-06-29 21:57 ]

[trjeam]

Hi fellas it's me again.

Just thought that I let you know why and I how I know that I need a emb. change.

The biggest reason I know is because I look at all the trumpeters' in the world and they all use some bottom lip and I don't even use half of my bottom lip. I just use a tiny piece of it.
So this leads me to believe that when i tucked my bottom lip in all the way today it cause more vibration plus the fast air = higher notes for me.

So I know for a fact that I need to use more bottom lip. But when I try to use more bottom lip I get mad because it feels like as if i'm just starting over again and I don't know how much bottom I should be using. Tucking my buttom lip all the way in feels the most comfortable but my cheeks puff up like dizzy. and I look like a bit like ARt Farmer. Plus it's very hard to play low notes and I can't toungue as well. And if i don't tuck my bottom lip all the way in it feels very weird.

By the way if you think you can help me and you know what you're talking about I could probably call you on the weekends. I have a cell phone that offers free nights and weekends.

[ This Message was edited by: trjeam on 2002-06-29 22:27 ]

[_Don Herman]

Learning to use lip curl, how much, how often, for what notes, etc. is really tough to describe over the Internet, imho. I'd suggest getting Jeff Smiley's Balanced Embouchure book. It will really help you understand the terms and provides a guide with exercises to do exactly what you're trying. And, yeah, of course it's like starting over! That's why a guide, preferably a teacher, is such a help. This is one time where I have no doubt* -- get Jeff's book and work it through. While Pop's and Clyde's books also help, in this case I think Balanced Embouchure is the way to go. I just read it again, as I'm planning to modify (improve, hopefully) my practice routine this summer.

FWIW - Don

* = means I'm probably wrong again!
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[trumpetteacher1]

George,

Is that Pandora's box I hear opening? Quick, better shut it - oops! Too late!!

Congratulations Gearge. It sounds like you just discovered the power of lip position. You may never be the same.

Now the problem is, the LOW notes won't come out. What a problem!

Yes, even with a more closed setting you can learn to play the low notes and tongue efficiently. These are common challenges in the beginning.

Your cheeks are likely puffing because you are creating a more powerful air seal. Again, common in the beginning.

You may consider spending some time in the SC forum. The folks down there are not as weird as they seem!

Oh, and I almost forgot. There is a book that I hope that you consider getting. The Balanced Somethingorother....

All jokes aside, I encourage you to pursue this new discovery, using whatever method that sounds good to you. You owe it to yourself, as Nick said above, to see where it goes.

Jeff Smiley
The Balanced Embouchure
http://www.trumpetteacher.net

PS Don, I see that you beat me to the post, as usual. THANKS!

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetteacher1 on 2002-06-30 00:03 ]

[trjeam]

[_Don Herman]

Jeff's book helps you learn the dynamics of how your embouchure moves during playing. Clyde Hunt has the same idea, and discusses it in his book Sail the Seven Cs (still gotta' love that title!) Jeff's book supplements your regular routine with specific exercies to help develop your embouchure so it can function dynamically. The actual movement during regular playing is relatively small, though it feels huge, and you have to learn it. I have a bunch of (all, perhaps) the Claude Gordon materials, as well as far too many others to list here. I consider Jeff's book, along with Caruso and a couple of others, kind of an additional text designed to help fully develop my (or, your) embouchure. A focus book, if you will.

I still say unto thee -- get it! If you don't like it, let me know and I'll buy it at your cost (assuming it's still in good condition, natch) from you to give to a student this fall. I have tens, if not a hundred or more, different methods and references, and Jeff's is top shelf. Really!

Beat ya' again, Jeff - Don

p.s. Jeff ain't paying me to endorse, FWIW.
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[kentfoss]

I think a good book for you, or anybody for that matter, is "Song and Wind" written by Brian Frederiksen. It's all about the life and teachings of Arnold Jacobs and is available from Windsong Press (www.windsongpress.com).

IMHO, I think you should forget about your lips and just think about the sound you're making on the horn. Although the great brass players didn't get where they are by not taking chances, they definitely didn't get there from doing things like changing their embouchure just to squeak out a few extra high notes, etc. ESPECIALLY if it is messing up other parts of your range and your articulation. The greats got where they are from very consistent practice... and lots of it.

I don't want to sound too much like I'm lecturing, this is just how I feel about this topic. I hope everything goes well for you!

Kent

[Emb_Enh]

...There is nothing physical that you can change quickly [eg..moving your tongue or lip..mpc...etc...] which will cure your trumpet playing problems overnight.

Also the correct way of playing for YOU may not be recognisable at first.MANY people go right past a good embouchure without recognising it. "Anyones" advice on this will at best be "a shot in the dark without seeing or hearing you" and MAY provide a quick fix only in the short term.

Get thee to a teacher who plays like you want to play. And put both lips [as much lip flesh] in the mpc [it may not sound good right away] to avoid future possible endurance [and other] problems.

You MAY be part of a small percentage of succesful trumpet players who don't put much of one or another lip into the mpc...I doubt it...but your young enough to cope with this problem provided you stop thrashing around thinking that a shifting of one bit of your embouchure or another will cure your playing problems right away.

Get thee to a teacher who plays like you want to play....
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[histrumpet]

[trjeam]

[trjeam]

[trumpetteacher1]

Hey Don,

How about this? If George gets the book and is not satisfied, I'll refund him in full (same offer I make to anybody) and have him send you the copy for free!



Now, what's this about giving the book to a "student?" Whose student, yours? Does this mean you are going to break your long-standing tradition of digging your toe into the dirt and mumbling something about "not being qualified" to teach?

For the sake of many struggling kids out there, I hope so!

Jeff

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetteacher1 on 2002-06-30 10:37 ]

[tom turner]

Hi,

I've stayed out of this post but, like many, I've received great pleasure in following it.

This is a good example of why I love both reading and contributing on the forum--for it is so heartwarming to see good people find a way to help each other improve.

"THE DREAM"
The trumpet is not an easy instrument . . . but gosh . . . each of us is drawn to master it, although it is sort of like a moth drawn to the flame. Still though, we are drawn to the case . . . pull our friend/adversary out of the case . . . and dream once again of soaring with the best.

For most, we can catch a whisper of a great sound/technique/range in our playing. For some, its an instant . . . others, a moment . . . for fewer still, an evening . . . of magic!

Inside our brains is that "inner voice," as supportive and forgiving as a caring mother, who says, "You sound WONDERFUL, you are a player of rare abilities in [choose one or two ONLY: tone/technique/range]!

That same, kind, inner voice also soothes you by telling you that your deficiency in [choose one: tone/technique/range] isn't important, that . . . players best in your strong area(s) are more "desirable" than players who are "just" strong in your weak one.

"THE NIGHTMARE"
At other times, our dreams of experiencing magic that day are dashed by the cold hard realities of a devastating practice or performance.

The inner voice then whispers, "You'll NEVER be any good (whatever that means)," and you swear you'll hang it up. However, there's something in you . . . THE "LIFER PLAYER" . . . that draws you to that "demon" in the case! Tomorrow you'll try again.

Also, our human nature of jealousy and resentment kicks in where we can sometimes rationalize, and even despise, players who can do things we cannot accomplish in our weakest area.

I've experienced this first hand . . . of being called a "tone" player, and of always having the best "sound" around . . . but also not having any outstanding range. For 40 years of playing I developed rationalized prejudices against those few "egotistical freaks" with the "unnessary" high notes and their "razor blade in the wind" range.

Other "LIFERS" around you, also frustrated, try to help. But IF they are "tormented" with their own struggles and failures in the SAME problem area there's a big problem . . . because HIS/HER inner voice has convinced them also that, "There's no hope of improvement . . . AND that it doesn't matter anyway, since that area of weakness is not as important."

"THE VICTORY!"
Making the "scary" switch to a closed embouchere system in March 2001 changed my whole understanding of MY problem! It is SO EXCITING to read in this post, about a player who is mirroring my quest!

I've been there too . . . and triumphed! Yeah, my teeth (once straight via braces) may be crooked from 40 years of the "Arm-Strong" pressure method . . . and my upper lip may be premanently swollen and disfigured . . .

But now I have the freedom to soar with those former "turkeys" and also to play all night long without fatigue. My wife of nearly 30 years says she never heard such a dramatic difference.

BTW, my TONE (always my strong suit), is STILL my best feature . . . for some things NEVER do change.

Congratulations to a fellow long-time poster Trjeam (George) for having the guts to step out and go to their next "level." The voices of doubt and fear are faced both internally and around you. HANG IN THERE . . . you have the potential of being a higher level player!!!

Congratulations to the Jeff Smileys, Jerry Callets and Lee Adams of this world for having the guts (and PASSION) to tell people they can improve . . . and have to endure the firestorm of critics and skeptics wanting to keep people held back to where their levels of failure are.

Congratulations ALSO to the warm, open-minded people like Don Herman--always ready to lend an encouraging voice. Gosh, I love the Trumpet Herald forum . . . where people can come to help each other to be the best we can be!

Well, I'm gonna go grab a cup of coffee and enjoy surfin' the forum. Hope everyone has a wonderful day in their practicing!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[trjeam]

[trjeam]

[_Don Herman]

On 2002-06-30 13:50, trjeam wrote:
The entire thing is just a big run that goes from low F# to high C.
...wouldn't using the lip curl make it impossible ... because i would have to pause to curl my lip in just to play the high notes???
----------

Hi George,

You're thinking of a big, static kind of thing, when in practice (or at least my practice) it's actually very small and quite dynamic. Most (not all, so just don't go there, OK, guys and gals? ) of us curl our lips just a hair when we put the mpc up, or to ascend. The trick is to master the ability to adjust your embouchure as you ascend and descend. It sounds scary and tricky, but in fact all of us do this all the time to some extent or other. The more your embouchure flexes, the more air is required to float the sound out, and the less mpc pressure is required (because now lips flex on the air wave -- wind! -- rather than adjusting the aperture with mpc pressure). Endurance, range, and sound improve dramatically. This is simplistic, but hopefully helps some... I'm getting way over my head here, so hopefully Jeff and the other "real" teachers will help bail me out*.

Note to Tom: FANTASTIC post, sir! (Yes, I shouted, sorry.) Scary to think how many of us go through all those stages, and how often... There are many other teachers helping us take it to the nexy level, of course (I'll spare you my list; your's is good, too! ) And, I appreciate the kind words, though in comparison to you and the "real" heavyweights of the forum, my knowledge and experience is pretty feeble.

HTH - Don

* Told to me after a financial review meeting, a few weeks after starting with a new company, showing things weren't quite as rosy as made out in the interview: "Welcome aboard! Now help bail!"

p.s. Yes, Jeff, my boy starts band, and even though he wants to play French horn, several other parents have asked if I teach so I'm thinking of taking the plunge. I love teaching, just hard to find time, and usually teach in my field of "expertise" (analog IC design) rather than something I still struggle with daily. OTOH, I've heard some of the kids talk about their lessons with some of the HS kids, and shudder... Thanks for your encouragement over the past few years!
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[trjeam]

[_Don Herman]

On 2002-06-30 15:27, trjeam wrote:
so you're saying that the lip curl is a small thing that will be like natural and wont be a disturbance?

Yes, it will become a natural part of your embouchure. In my (very limited) experience, the biggest problem most have when told to use lip curl is that they exaggerate the motion. In fact, there is some motion, and at first it feels huge, but it ain't all that big. The problem is figuring out how much is right for you, and how to incorporate it into daily playing. That's where Jeff's book is such a help. Lip curl is just part of the overall picture, and some methods don't advocate it at all. However, lip curl is an easy way to gain range (but always control and good sound). A little bit goes a long ways! As always, sound can be your guide -- a pinched, tight "squealy" sort of sound means too much curl. You have to have relaxed lip in the mpc, at least relatively, to provide the free vibration needed for good rich (i.e., harmonic-rich) sound.

I think. - Don

[dbacon]

DB