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HJ
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Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 387
Location: The Netherlands
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 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: A major difference between Flexus and Caruso? |
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| PH wrote: |
I agree with Charly. It seems clear to me that if you are having thee kinds of questions and problems it is likely that you are not following the Four Rules religiously.
I wish I could watch/hear you play through this stuff. Do you have any way to send video? |
I am afraid that is not possible.
The only thing I can imagine that went wrong in the past is that I manipulate Rule 3: keep the blow steady. This has been a long time problem for me. I have been overblowing, underblowing very unstable blowing, so it is very impotrtant fo me to give this aspect extra attention. All the other rules are pretty simple to execute. But keeping the blow steady actually is an exercise on its own and needs development.
Bert |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5860
Location: New Albany, Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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If you can stay with the program long enough to introduce the SLS and LSL intervals I think this will make you more aware of keeping the blow steady. For me this Caruso stuff made a major positive impact on my playing from the start. However, it was when I started to do the SLS and LSL studies that my results went through the roof.
One warning. Don't hurry through the first few lessons in order to get to the SLS stuff. You need to lay a foundation first in order to be ready for them. |
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_bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 2865
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: A major difference between Flexus and Caruso? |
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| HJ wrote: |
All the other rules are pretty simple to execute. But keeping the blow steady actually is an exercise on its own and needs development.
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Keeping the blow steady is really quite simple. It means to just keep blowing the air. Rule 3 is not looking for perfect exhalation. Just keep the blow uninterrupted while playing the interval.
It isn't clear to me what would be a problem/difficult in doing that. |
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Jerry Freedman
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Joined: 29 Jan 2002
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Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| For me, the exercise that really gets the blow steady is the harmonics |
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HJ
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:13 am Post subject: Re: A major difference between Flexus and Caruso? |
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| bugleboy wrote: |
Keeping the blow steady is really quite simple. It means to just keep blowing the air. Rule 3 is not looking for perfect exhalation. Just keep the blow uninterrupted while playing the interval.
It isn't clear to me what would be a problem/difficult in doing that. |
It just is. The more complicated an exercise is, the easier it is (not only for me) to start and manipulate the steady blow. I cannot imnagine you have not encountered problems such as people who interrupt the air stream by using the glottis as a way to make a slur. They are unaware of this and thus think they do it right, but just don't. To get those people to blow steady is a hard job sometimes. Another thing is when people try to play low notes, they often blow much softer, also an unconcious thing. People think they blow steady, but they don't. For myself, I can keep this under control, but things like flexando's and other advanced stuff really challenges the way you blow air. A question that came up was this: when you play an interval like a fifth, in normal playing it is not uncommon to play a little louder to get to the fifth. In BE there is even an exxageration called the 'snap' which really makes the lips do the right thing. If you are proficient on the snap, it is easy to play the same interval without this little burst of air. Is this the contrary of what Caruso says? Should the steady air be interpreted as 'same speed, same volume' the whole range? I can imagine the reason for this would be that the lips have to do all the work and make the pitches. Is this the way you Caruso guys do it, or does the air/ compression go up on an ascending slur, like the flexando in Flexus? I can easily play this, and made it a two part exercise: first time I really snap the top note to get the right feel, second time (without resetting) I play it much more evenly with a more steady blow. Any comments?
Bert |
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_bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 2865
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:26 am Post subject: Re: A major difference between Flexus and Caruso? |
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| HJ wrote: |
The more complicated an exercise is, the easier it is (not only for me) to start and manipulate the steady blow. |
This may be a good reason for you to spend more time on the Six Notes before moving on to the Intervals. For each note in the Six Notes there are three breath attacks, if you use breath attacks for all articulation as I recommend for anyone practicing Caruso on his own. This will be the simplest exercise to keep the blow constant: breath attack (BA) ... hold the note for two beats ... while holding the note make another BA on that same note without interrupting the air flow (this will be be like saying "huh" while holding the note) ... and finally repeat the last process again and this time hold the note for four beats.
I would get this process of BA with continuous air flow down before moving on to the interval exercises.
| HJ wrote: |
I cannot imnagine you have not encountered problems such as people who interrupt the air stream by using the glottis as a way to make a slur. They are unaware of this and thus think they do it right, but just don't. To get those people to blow steady is a hard job sometimes. |
In every instance that this has occurred with a student of mine, it has only been necessary to point out that the air is being interrupted between notes to get them to fix it and not allow the air to be interrupted.
| HJ wrote: |
In BE there is even an exxageration called the 'snap' which really makes the lips do the right thing. If you are proficient on the snap, it is easy to play the same interval without this little burst of air. Is this the contrary of what Caruso says? |
As soon as you start talking about proficiency you are getting into results and being result conscious. My take on the snap is that it is a timing device. Nothing wrong with that but IMO is getting slightly away from the way Caruso always wanted me to practice his stuff. For example, it will be easier for you to play a second line G (G2) up to the tuning note (C2) and back down if you use 23 for the C rather than play it open. The valves become a timing device for the C. With Caruso the timing device is the foot. All the Caruso exercises attempt to put the greatest burden possible on the lips and the muscles that control them. The Caruso process is intended to be purely a physical one and not one whose goal is results. This is a stumbling block for many who try the Caruso approach. Being result conscious makes Caruso calisthenics very frustrating. Approaching them as a physical activity makes them very easy to do.
| HJ wrote: |
Should the steady air be interpreted as 'same speed, same volume' the whole range? |
No.
| HJ wrote: |
Is this the way you Caruso guys do it, or does the air/ compression go up on an ascending slur, |
I try to play with the same volume (MF) throughout an exercise (except, of course, <> and >< exercises). I don't think in terms of air compression so wouldn't be able to answer that.
| HJ wrote: |
I can easily play this, and made it a two part exercise: first time I really snap the top note to get the right feel, second time (without resetting) I play it much more evenly with a more steady blow. Any comments?
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It sounds like you're trying to get/induce results with the Caruso stuff. Read "Zen In The Art Of Archery" by Eugene Herrigel for a good treatment of someone involved in a similar situation. Before Caruso is going to work for you and not cause stress in your life, you need to accept it on Caruso's terms. |
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JoeCool
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Location: Wimberley, TX
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:25 am Post subject: |
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HJ-Lighten up. You're giving me a headache. There is no comparison with CC to anything else. You are thinking too hard on this stuff. Sorry for the directness, but let it go and just follow the four rules and forget about what the heck it sounds like. These are calisthenics, that's it.
Once you let it all go, you will become a better trumpet player, period. Blind faith my friend, blind faith.
One added side benefit--I have discovered that I can use this disregarding of annoying sounds and apply it to annoying people. HA!
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HJ
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:26 am Post subject: Re: A major difference between Flexus and Caruso? |
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| bugleboy wrote: |
I would get this process of BA with continuous air flow down before moving on to the interval exercises. |
I started this whole thread because I was trying to find out differences and similarities between Flexus and MCFB. It gradually changed to a kind of getting started, which is OK. But I like the way I am practicing, I am having good results, and Flexus feels like a great way to improve even more. During the last days I've become more interested in knowing more about the roots of Flexus. I even started a little experiment with MCFB again (for the third or fourth time in my life), but thanks to you I know what I should strive for (or should I say, NOT strive for). I do the six notes, having no problem with airflow, and the seconds, without airflow problems. The steady blow 'problem' is when I play the Flexus-exercises, although it is more of a concentration problem than anything else, but thanks for the great help. It can always be useful for a student.
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In every instance that this has occurred with a student of mine, it has only been necessary to point out that the air is being interrupted between notes to get them to fix it and not allow the air to be interrupted. |
Easier said than done. It takes at least a student who is aware of what he does, and maybe it is my teaching or else the stupid Dutch students, but it is not always easily fixed.
| Quote: |
As soon as you start talking about proficiency you are getting into results and being result conscious. My take on the snap is that it is a timing device. Nothing wrong with that but IMO is getting slightly away from the way Caruso always wanted me to practice his stuff. For example, it will be easier for you to play a second line G (G2) up to the tuning note (C2) and back down if you use 23 for the C rather than play it open. The valves become a timing device for the C. With Caruso the timing device is the foot. All the Caruso exercises attempt to put the greatest burden possible on the lips and the muscles that control them. The Caruso process is intended to be purely a physical one and not one whose goal is results. |
You are not telling me that Caruso did not intend to make a better trumpet player of his students? Isn't that called result?
And about what timing devices: in the end it is what works. I understand that in Caruso it is the foot and I will try and apply it that way. No more snaps when attempting Caruso. A bit of a shame really, for the snaps even make beginners do the right thing without thinking twice. I know I am being a bit mean here, no harm intended. I understand what you are saying.
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This is a stumbling block for many who try the Caruso approach. Being result conscious makes Caruso calisthenics very frustrating. Approaching them as a physical activity makes them very easy to do. |
Actually doing Flexus this way is very liberating. I don't care about missed notes and cracks. Makes it very easy indeed. Still got the feeling that I am doing a great workout that way.
| Quote: |
It sounds like you're trying to get/induce results with the Caruso stuff. Read "Zen In The Art Of Archery" by Eugene Herrigel for a good treatment of someone involved in a similar situation. Before Caruso is going to work for you and not cause stress in your life, you need to accept it on Caruso's terms. |
I read the Zen book. Great. Maybe I am not a great zen student.
I remember a passage where the teacher sends away the pupil, very angry because he is actually fooling himself by doing it the wrong way.
When I play the flexando's I can just play them. Period. I don't have to put an accent on the highest note, but that is the way I taught my body and lips what to do. I failed a thousand times and now I don't have to try to play them, I just do. So, I don't feel like I am fooling myself, here. I think I just know how to play this and maybe I should move on. They just feel so d**** great everytime I play them and make my lips and heart twinkle with delight. I love playing the trumpet!!!!!
Isn't this great?
I think that besides all the stuff that we are discussing here plain fun and selfconfidence are major triggers for playing enhancement. So, sometimes I just play exercises for fun. Yes, it is possible.
Bert |
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R.A.S.
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Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 321
Location: Woodbury, MN
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:07 am Post subject: |
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My solution to Caruso vs. Callet vs. Balanced Embouchure vs. Adam vs. Schlossberg vs. whatever:
Get the old MacBeth Maggio book, and play it according to the instructions!
(a warmup - A or C are my favorites
range exercises - #10, #7, #1
tonguing exercise - #8
flexibility - #5
long tones - #9)
Then go on to some of the Vizzutti Book 2 stuff.
Then play what you enjoy, what you have coming up, what your teacher has assigned you this week, other etudes, excerpts, jazz, etc. |
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HJ
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Posts: 387
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| JoeCool wrote: | | HJ-Lighten up. You're giving me a headache. There is no comparison with CC to anything else. You are thinking too hard on this stuff. Sorry for the directness, but let it go and just follow the four rules and forget about what the heck it sounds like. These are calisthenics, that's it. |
It seems that we were writing at exactly the same time, cooldude. Did you read what I wrote? If that ain't a positive statement, I don't know what is. Sorry about the headache., might need some lightening up yourself?
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Once you let it all go, you will become a better trumpet player, period. Blind faith my friend, blind faith. |
I've had enough blind faith for a lifetime, and alas, it did not make me a better trumpet player.
Bert |
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_bugleboy
Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 2865
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: A major difference between Flexus and Caruso? |
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| HJ wrote: |
You are not telling me that Caruso did not intend to make a better trumpet player of his students? Isn't that called result?
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Of course CC's intent was for his students to become better players; in fact he guaranteed it. But the difference between CC and most other approaches is that improvement isn't the yardstick by which success is measured. He was teaching a discipline. A discipline that he knew, if followed, would bring improvement to the student's playing. But that improvement would be a result of the student having engaged first in the discipline he was teaching which measures success by how carefully the discilpline (as expressed in the Four Rules) is followed.
A football coach has his players jump through tires in practice and expects them to do it on the run. No tires on the field during the game, but the players play better in the game for having practiced with the tires. |
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HJ
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: Re: A major difference between Flexus and Caruso? |
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| bugleboy wrote: | | improvement isn't the yardstick by which success is measured. |
I am more and more getting the idea. Since I started this query, I watch and think about how people learn in general, and most of the time it is trial and error, and finally they make it (or not). One important thing is that trial and error be done with the right tools/elements/exercises and with the right mindset.
I went skating with my three year old son this afternoon and of course he is falling more than he skates, but he is teaching his body to skate and in the end he will be able to do it. And this is the way it works: there is ice, there are skates and all he has to do is to keep himself from falling everytime. The goal is pretty simple, though not simply achieved. In trumpet playing there are so many goals and a lot of detours and wrong exercises/ manipulations/ theories that it is hard to stay on the right track. I think a book like BE offers the right tools and with trial and error you will get your chops right. MCFB as a book is not very clear, but I am beginning to understand that the tools and exercises offered are also a good way to do your 'trial and error' session everyday.
There is still one thing that I don't really get (watch your headache, Joe): if it is just about doing the exercises and following the 4 rules very strictly, how much should you try to play right? I mean at least you have to TRY to play an exercise right. If you play a fifth and you don't even try to play a fifth you'll never play a fifth (if you try to learn to skate and you practice on wooden shoes, you won't learn it). So how result concious can you be without disturbing the process of letting it happen? Is it always just one go at it and just go on to the next exercise if you think you are ready? Or should there be a limit to the trials you make (try three times and out, like the BE approach)?
Bert |
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JoeCool
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Bert,
If you really want to learn CC, then you have to set your mind to just CC. Compartmentalize if you will. Forget everything else about trumpet playing when doing the exercises and the four rules. Delve into getting started. Also check out Pat Harbison's lesson notes. They are stuck at the beginning of this forum with all the getting started threads. There is no 'if', only 'do'.
The exercises are designed for most anyone at any level, save for an absolute beginner. Even then a variation of of six notes could be done. They are progressive and open ended. Maybe that is why you have a hard time understanding them. There is no quantization of CC. For instance, if you are doing the seconds, then you will play them as high as you can today to failure. Then you will stop and rest anywhere from 15 to 30 seconds. Then you will do a second blow to failure and that's it disregarding any kind of quality or how far you got. I might get to high C one day and only high A the next. Two years from now I may get to an airy pinched double A and only a double G the next. This is just the way the human body is. That's why you aren't result conscious.
You're getting the idea by the way you described your son learning to skate. You certainly would not get on his case because he didn't advance with style as far as you thought he should in that session the other day. So it is with CC.
I can't help myself when I reiterate how well this stuff works. There are pieces of literature that I haven't looked at for a year or more in some cases that were difficult for me and I am amazed how well I can play them in the first try. I truly believe that the majority of playing problems are lip problems. Once the embouchure mechanism is balanced and efficient, most other things fall right into place including air delivery. I had a major problem with the glottis manipulating the airstream and some grunting. My wife would crack up when I played on the silent brass mute because it was that pronounced. I don't practice on it any longer, I hated that thing. I still manipulate sometimes, but it is going away. Diligent practice of CC and following the four rules allowed me to overcome this bad habit.
Hope this helps, man.
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Joe |
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HJ
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| JoeCool wrote: |
If you really want to learn CC, then you have to set your mind to just CC. Compartmentalize if you will. Forget everything else about trumpet playing when doing the exercises and the four rules. Delve into getting started. Also check out Pat Harbison's lesson notes. They are stuck at the beginning of this forum with all the getting started threads. There is no 'if', only 'do'. |
Thanks Joe. I think I am finally getting the point. BE is another system where you forget about everything you learned and just foolow the instructions. After the exercises you just play whatever and however you want. I understand that this is the same with CC. BTW. I already printed out the lesson notes and getting started and it is on my stand for a week now.
| Quote: |
For instance, if you are doing the seconds, then you will play them as high as you can today to failure. Then you will stop and rest anywhere from 15 to 30 seconds. Then you will do a second blow to failure and that's it disregarding any kind of quality or how far you got. I might get to high C one day and only high A the next. Two years from now I may get to an airy pinched double A and only a double G the next. This is just the way the human body is. That's why you aren't result conscious. |
Thanks, that is the advice I needed and where I went wrong in the past. The moment I played a high C, I was not satisfied with any lower note the next day. I am beginning to see the exact meaning of the word calisthenics.
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You're getting the idea by the way you described your son learning to skate. You certainly would not get on his case because he didn't advance with style as far as you thought he should in that session the other day. So it is with CC. |
Just checking if that was about the direction to think in.
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I truly believe that the majority of playing problems are lip problems. Once the embouchure mechanism is balanced and efficient, most other things fall right into place including air delivery. |
I totally agree with this. 100%. The nice thing is, that I discovered the same thing through BE. What you descibe here could be my experience with BE, and that is why I am so interested in the workings of CC. I am very anxious to discover in what way CC, Flexus and BE can enhance each other. It is justy my little experiment and if I find major things I will post them right here.
BTW I did the same thing with TCE and there are interesting similarities between all these systems. Maybe one day it becomes one big clear system that everyone can benefit from.
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Hope this helps, man. |
It sure does, it sure does. Great post, it cleared up the last unclarities for me.
Regards, Bert |
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