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trjeam
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 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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When it comes to jazz what makes jazz what makes jazz so serious and special? What was Miles Davis and those guys doing that made jazz so serious. I mean when you guys listen to a jazz recording that doesn't have fast licks or high notes what makes you say "jee this guy is good"
What's Dianna krall doing that noone else is doing right know? What seperates jazz from the other music ?
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Quadruple C
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| [ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 17:36 ] |
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trjeam
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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On 2002-07-25 20:07, Quadruple C wrote:
Depth. It comes down to human experience. A great artist of any kind in any field will have great depth and understanding of the human experience in all it's ways. That's why the older you get the better chance you have of playing something of meaning because you have more to draw from, your personal experience and wisdom well is deeper and more vast, if you will. There is an expression that someone is an "old soul", this really means they have a lot of understanding and wisdom to share and give. Someone like Clifford Brown or Fats Navarro who could play great at such a young age because they had a much greater starting point than most people in life, their reference points were highly developed, so they did their thing then left because they already accomplished what they were supposed to, they set the standard. We were very fortunate to have Dizzy and Miles for as long as we did, especially Duke and Louis as they are the essence and direction of the music. There is so much Duke and Louis on record it is astounding, thank God for that.  David
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As intrumentalist how do we do that? I mean a vocalist can easy show maturity and we can easily see it by their lyrics. But what makes a phrase more serious and deep then others? How did chet and louis and those guys do it? |
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Quadruple C
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2002 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| [ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 17:36 ] |
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trjeam
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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On 2002-07-25 22:45, Quadruple C wrote:
As instrumentalists we are representing our own interpretation of vocal music and the human voice, the more you can sound like a beautiful voice the better you will sound. In a way it is harder to play a wind instrument than to sing because the wind instrument is not your natural human voice, you have to make it an extension of your human voice, not easy, if it were easy there would be a Chet Baker at every block, this is our challenge as artists. It's kind of a Zen thing where you become one with your vehicle of expression. How do you do it better? Listen to endless amounts of great singers like Frank Sinatra, Nat Cole, Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong and any singers that move you. It comes down to how much are you willing to express or want to express through your music. If the answer is as much as you possibly can, then work on learning your instrument classically on a high level, so there are no barriers from that area of expression. Then spend 1 hour every day listening to great singers, also get out your horn and back them up, play with them like you guys have been playing together for 25 years. When you solo think of sounding like the great singers that you listen to, this will give you the direction you need, a bit of a good road map if you will. Then as you progress you will find more and more of your own sound through the tradition of the great singers and musicians, but you have to be true to tradition before you can truly find your own sound. You have to learn the language of expression, then you will find your own way of doing it in time.  David
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<font size=-2>[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2002-07-25 22:51 ]</font>
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Great answer david. just what i was looking for. thanks. |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
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Location: New Albany, Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:04 am Post subject: |
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A big part of what makes any kind of playing great is the realization that the only thing that exists right now is the present moment.
It doesn't matter if what you are playing is something you've played before. It is the only thing you have in the here and now. Sing the song you are singing and don't think about the song you have sung or the one you will sing.
I think that jazz, because of the improvisational attitude, embodies this "here and now" approach to making music better than any other western music. |
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trjeam
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:33 am Post subject: |
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On 2002-07-26 10:04, PH wrote:
A big part of what makes any kind of playing great is the realization that the only thing that exists right now is the present moment.
It doesn't matter if what you are playing is something you've played before. It is the only thing you have in the here and now. Sing the song you are singing and don't think about the song you have sung or the one you will sing.
I think that jazz, because of the improvisational attitude, embodies this "here and now" approach to making music better than any other western music.
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If jazz is a "here and now" type of thing then why is it that after so many years later people are still talking about miles music and louis's and chet's?
For all I know their music will probably live forever. How did they do this. Decades later people are still listening and talking about their music.
We've had rock bands that have come and gone and no one ever talks about them anymore and we've had singers come and go. And there music didn't really live on it was just sort of a "of the momment thing".
So how did what makes miles and louis so special that even today people are still talking about them? Is this a spiritual thing?
I'm starting to think that this goes beyond the "here and now" approach because if it was like that then we wouldn't be able to connect with their music decades later.
[ This Message was edited by: trjeam on 2002-07-26 11:38 ] |
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trumpetdiva1
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:34 am Post subject: |
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QUOTE:
I mean when you guys listen to a jazz recording that doesn't have fast licks or high notes what makes you say "jee this guy is good"?
I think that Miles Davis approach to playing and improvisation was so great because he could do so much with so few notes. He did not play in the extreme upper register or play highly technical passages. Some great jazz improvers played fast and high notes such as Clifford Brown. Clifford was great, too. However, others, including Miles, chose to express themselves in a different way using fewer notes, but what they said through their instrument was very important. They chose at the moment to make a statement and did it with few notes. Their statement was intense in all the notes that they had used. Each note counted. I also agree that soul is a part of it, too, as well as the way you chose to personally express yourself with improvisation. Perhaps it was because Miles Davis found the best way to express his musical ideas in the moment and capitalized on it. Others may find that playing high and fast is their best personal approach whereas others may find that not suitable for their personal style of expression.
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Vessehune
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2002 9:07 am Post subject: |
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TrJeam I think I started out like many trumpet players. Listening to Maynard and just loving it for the high notes. I then started branching out. First to Buddy Rich and Stan Kenton (not too much branching ) and then to Miles and such. When I first heard Miles ( I got him because my teacher recomended it) on Kinda Blue I thought it was pretty dull. Of course after listening to a high energy Buddy Rich tune it's was hard to come down to appreciate the coolness of the laid back mellow that Kind of Blue is. I really didn't like it and didn't listen too much. Then I went to Community College! In my first jazz improv class we were asked to transcribe solos. I was given Miles' So What solo from Kind of Blue. After doing that and seeing what he was doing with music I was impressed and have been listening ever since. I think the deeper you yourself get into the music the more ou will appreciate Miles, and Chet etc... It's just a part of your musical growth that will take you on a great journey through some great music.
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trjeam
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2002 9:45 am Post subject: |
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On 2002-07-26 12:07, Vessehune wrote:
TrJeam I think I started out like many trumpet players. Listening to Maynard and just loving it for the high notes. I then started branching out. First to Buddy Rich and Stan Kenton (not too much branching ) and then to Miles and such. When I first heard Miles ( I got him because my teacher recomended it) on Kinda Blue I thought it was pretty dull. Of course after listening to a high energy Buddy Rich tune it's was hard to come down to appreciate the coolness of the laid back mellow that Kind of Blue is. I really didn't like it and didn't listen too much. Then I went to Community College! In my first jazz improv class we were asked to transcribe solos. I was given Miles' So What solo from Kind of Blue. After doing that and seeing what he was doing with music I was impressed and have been listening ever since. I think the deeper you yourself get into the music the more ou will appreciate Miles, and Chet etc... It's just a part of your musical growth that will take you on a great journey through some great music.
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I do appreciate those guys and love them for their creativity. I wish I could do what they did. I'm just trying to find out why is it that i can connect so well with something that was written probably decades before I was even more. It's just crazy. These guys must of have come from a different planet or somethng |
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pfrank
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2002 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Well yeah, and that different plannet is the Earth in the 40s, 50s and 60s! |
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Quadruple C
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2002 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| [ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 17:37 ] |
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tryingtolivethelife
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| Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2002 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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I don't like people saying that young peoples solos say less or mean less due to their youth... it's rather rood. Just because somebody is older does not mean they have lived more or harder... just longer. And what the hell happened to judging music... on the merits of the muscian not their race sex or color or age>? Ever tried that, given yourself a blindfold test? I understand the whole, all he has to say through his horn is mucic school... but thats not an age thing, thats licks and exersizes and pre practiced stuff making up the body of a solo. Give us young players a chance before you write us off as having little to say, or no depth behind it. You can be fifty and be a moron at playing your horn... what the hell does it matter you can speak from a wealth of experience there? I'm not saying anybody on here is, as I know this isn't the case.
I don't think Dizzy Gillispie would have said stuff like that... he would help the young guy and show him what he knows, not tell everyone that he has no feeling to express, or no experience to relay.
And another question?? How can listening to a singer be the be all and end all if you wanna play Be-Bop?? why can't you choose to play the trumpet as a trumpet, it's own beautiful tone and personallity. Why does it have to be imitating something else?
Relax, I'm just young though and speaking from a lack of experiences or life to relay... so take it easy what I say is rather unimportant. |
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trjeam
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| Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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On 2002-07-26 18:53, tryingtolivethelife wrote:
I don't like people saying that young peoples solos say less or mean less due to their youth... it's rather rood. Just because somebody is older does not mean they have lived more or harder... just longer. And what the hell happened to judging music... on the merits of the muscian not their race sex or color or age>? Ever tried that, given yourself a blindfold test? I understand the whole, all he has to say through his horn is mucic school... but thats not an age thing, thats licks and exersizes and pre practiced stuff making up the body of a solo. Give us young players a chance before you write us off as having little to say, or no depth behind it. You can be fifty and be a moron at playing your horn... what the hell does it matter you can speak from a wealth of experience there? I'm not saying anybody on here is, as I know this isn't the case.
I don't think Dizzy Gillispie would have said stuff like that... he would help the young guy and show him what he knows, not tell everyone that he has no feeling to express, or no experience to relay.
And another question?? How can listening to a singer be the be all and end all if you wanna play Be-Bop?? why can't you choose to play the trumpet as a trumpet, it's own beautiful tone and personallity. Why does it have to be imitating something else?
Relax, I'm just young though and speaking from a lack of experiences or life to relay... so take it easy what I say is rather unimportant.
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You are asking allot of good question that I have always asked myself before and you also make many good points. I hope that someone steps up and answers you. |
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Nicholas Dyson
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Joined: 27 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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On 2002-07-26 18:53, tryingtolivethelife wrote:
I don't like people saying that young peoples solos say less or mean less due to their youth... it's rather rood. Just because somebody is older does not mean they have lived more or harder... just longer. And what the hell happened to judging music... on the merits of the muscian not their race sex or color or age>? Ever tried that, given yourself a blindfold test? I understand the whole, all he has to say through his horn is mucic school... but thats not an age thing, thats licks and exersizes and pre practiced stuff making up the body of a solo. Give us young players a chance before you write us off as having little to say, or no depth behind it. You can be fifty and be a moron at playing your horn... what the hell does it matter you can speak from a wealth of experience there? I'm not saying anybody on here is, as I know this isn't the case.
I don't think Dizzy Gillispie would have said stuff like that... he would help the young guy and show him what he knows, not tell everyone that he has no feeling to express, or no experience to relay.
And another question?? How can listening to a singer be the be all and end all if you wanna play Be-Bop?? why can't you choose to play the trumpet as a trumpet, it's own beautiful tone and personallity. Why does it have to be imitating something else?
Relax, I'm just young though and speaking from a lack of experiences or life to relay... so take it easy what I say is rather unimportant.
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I suppose I'll 'step up' or whatever, and try to clarify some things, because all we have here is a misunderstanding.
Basically you summed up the whole thing in your very last sentence. Lack of experience, etc. It's not a negative thing at all. You're absolutely right, there are plenty of 50 year old morons about, and absolutely brilliant young folks. However, on the 'licks' and things like that, those are thing we use as students to help better understand the language. Meriam and Webster had to learn a few words from other people before they started writing their dictionaries.
There is no set in stone 'age rule' for any of us to follow. Growing up in Boise Idaho, I had a lot of opportunities at a young age that most people don't get until they've paid more dues. I just lucked out because the amount of dues you needed to pay to get the gig in Idaho was FAR less than pretty much anywhere else. Did I get my butt kicked and learn a ton in the process? You betcha.
The only reason you feel that age-ism is so prevailent is simply because the MAJORITY of the time, players who have had more time to study the masters that came before and assimilate that information into something both useful and PERSONAL. Remember the old cliche about folks not wanting to go to college, they wanted to go back packing in Europe to 'find themselves' instead? Life is constant growth. Don't try to be in such a hurry to be looked at as a pro.
Now, there are exceptions to the rule, always. I was just reading an old thread about Ryan Kisor, and someone was saying that growing up in Iowa, he was blowing on Abersold stuff as early as 2nd grade, and playing in the high school jazz band in grade 6. No one said he sounded great in grade 2, they just said that he had already started the learning process. To innovate, you have to thoroughly understand the PLATFORM you are innovating. I think it's rare for innovation to come from conscious thought about innovating. Those who I think of innovating do so just in the process of speaking their language. Dave Douglas, Nicholas Payton, etc.
As far as listening to singers to play bebop. You're absolutely right. When I play a tune, or 'piece' that had or has words associated with it, I try to consciously think of the lyrics, and play like I would sing it. When I play my own music with my band, I don't write words. The notes are my words. The notes were Charlie Parker's words. I guarantee he would have sung the same way. The horn is nothing more than an extension of your body, and music making, music loving apparatus. We practice all the arbans and clarke and schlossberg etc. ad nauseum PURELY to better facilitate being able to access OUR OWN VOICE. I think the point they were trying to make (QuadC, I think?) about singing was that regardless of words or not, play as if you are singing. I know my trumpet voice is nicer to listen to than my regular voice.
Phew, I hope that was ample 'stepping up' for you all. I need a rest.... 
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Quadruple C
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| Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2002 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| [ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 17:39 ] |
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nawlinsboundjazz
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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The thing that makes easy music impressive is the conversation through the horn. Those who can express emotions through playing make you feel those emotions. That is what is it all about, emotions and conversation.
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trjeam
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dwm1129
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2002 9:09 am Post subject: |
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On 2002-08-05 11:40, trjeam wrote:
Thanks to all the replies to all my questions.
Can you guys give me names of guys that are out their doing new stuff like miles and those guys were?
Thanks.
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Guys out there that are really trying to innovate and progress the art are guys like Dave Douglas -trumpet, Mark Tuner-sax,Stefon Harris-vibes,Matt Wilson-drums, Bela Fleck-banjo, Pat Methany -Guitar, Dave Holland-bass and Anthony Braxton-sax...those are some of the cats that I can think of off the top of my head that are doing new things.....and there are a bunch of cats in New York that are breaking new ground in my opinion and most of the true innovaters your not going to hear because they don't have a large audience yet...the public is always years behind
Some of these guys music may sound wierd and not appeal to you, but when Bird and Diz first started playing everyone thought it was wierd, now it's considered standard, wait for another 20 years and some of these guys music will be considered standard |
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nawlinsboundjazz
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2002 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Hey, yeah, man Bela Flek is so awesome, that sax player, well everyone in the flecktones is awesome. Good choice...as for trumpeters, i like roy hargrove.
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