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bj
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 580
Location: Scotland
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 Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| trumpet356 wrote: |
Daniel Pipes had this to say:
"Yesterday's explosions mark the end of the "covenant of security." Let's hope they also mark the end of an era of innocence, and that British authorities now begin to preempt terrorism rather than wait to become its victims." http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0705/pipes2005_07_08.php3
My fear is that this "era of innocence" still exists for too many UK'ers. |
Hi
I don't know who this Pipes guy is but if he looked at the history of the "troubles" or terrorist problems that UK had with the IRA or even bothered to do some basic research he might have found some facts that didn't lie well with that rubbish he wrote and that you have quoted above.
When terrorists/freedom fighters (take your pick) were crossing the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland someone in UK hierarchy decided to put a stop to it or at least slow it down. All of a sudden bodies began turning up in shallow graves at the border.
In more recent times a group of IRA bombers went to Gibraltar clearly with the intention of blowing up something (why else take a car full of explosives?). No show trial here. An SAS unit just shot the bombers and slipped away.
Rightly or wrongly the UK government has been ruthless in dealing with terrorists when it has found them. Whether it has been Irish terrorists or the Iranian embassy seige, the usual outcome is no one is left to take to trial at the end of it - they end up dead.
It seems to be that if you kill a group of bombers on their way to the gig, or you kill what you suspect to be terrorists when they are crossing the border then you might be said to be preempting terrorism (or maybe commiting murder - take your choice). But you are not waiting to be victims.
That quote is pants.
Just another view.
Brian Jones |
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trumpet356
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Joined: 17 Nov 2003
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Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:52 am Post subject: |
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BJ: Good post. In the quote above, Pipes is ONLY referring to Islamic terrorism, not that of the IRA.
If you didn't dig what he had to say above, you really won't dig this (and I would be interested on the take of those who actually live in the UK):
"Thanks to the war in Iraq, much of the world sees the British government as resolute and tough and the French one as appeasing and weak. But in another war, the one against terrorism and radical Islam, the reverse is true: France is the most stalwart nation in the West, even more so than America, while Britain is the most hapless.
British-based terrorists have carried out operations in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kenya, Tanzania, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel, Morocco, Russia, Spain, and America. Many governments - Jordanian, Egyptian, Moroccan, Spanish, French, and American - have protested London's refusal to shut down its Islamist terrorist infrastructure or extradite wanted operatives. In frustration, Egypt's president Hosni Mubarak publicly denounced Britain for "protecting killers." One American security group has called for Britain to be listed as a terrorism-sponsoring state."
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2764
BTW: What does "that quote is pants" mean? This last one may be "shirts" - pretty soon, we'll have a full wardrobe!  |
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bj
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpet356 wrote: | | BJ: Good post. In the quote above, Pipes is ONLY referring to Islamic terrorism, not that of the IRA.
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Hi
Why restrict terrorism to Islamic? Heck we've had bombs going off in UK cities since way before the Islamics set about us. I don't think the victims cared which group or nationality was killing/maiming them.
The only reason might be if a person would like to single out one group more than another - but they are all the same, why differentiate?
As to UK sponsoring terrorism - I am not daft enough to believe our people or government are whiter than white.
However during visits to the US in the late 80's (and I bet it was so until 9/11) it was not unusual to be asked in a Boston bar say (actual experience) for donation to the RA (Republican Army - Irish Replublican Army). The folk who were blowing up British civilians.
If there is a government in the world who hasn't given funds to, allowed funds to be raised for, or sold weapons/explosives to terrorist organisations or countries sponsoring terrorism, then they are amongst a rare group indeed.
BTW France went into Auckland Harbour (dangerous country New Zealand!!) to blow up the Rainbow Warrior - you got to watch those dangerous Friends of the Earth. Follow the French idea and it is as OK to blow up those dangerous Friends of the Earth types as it is to sell nuclear technology, aircraft and missile systems to Saddam.
It is not a popular viewpoint, but I believe most countries are guilty to a certain degree - it just depends on the old cliche of one persons freedom fighter being another persons terrorist.
all the best
Brian Jones |
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placebo11
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Joined: 10 Jun 2003
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Location: texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpetmike wrote: | There us a difference between inaction and retaliation in kind.
What I find hardest to comprehend are the calls for mass slaughter of Muslims. The Muslim teaching DOES NOT condone terrorist actions, whatever the media might suggest. Killing is wrong, according to their belief system.
What is needed is action to prevent the radical elements of ANY religion and ANY race. What this action is, I am afraid I am not enough of thinker to come up with, but I do not believe that further murder is the way forward. I wish I knew all the answers.
If you are trying to prove to the terrorist minority that things can be achieved without the need for killing (which I would hope is what people are aiming for), if we kill them, are we sending the right message? |
Oh, boy. It doesn't get much better than this.
You say:
"What I find hardest to comprehend are the calls for mass slaughter of Muslims." Really? I find this odd. I would assume you would find the calls of mass slaughter of Western people hardest to comprehend. The kind that yell 'God is great' before they kill your fellow citizens. How dare you insinuate bigotry against against the West when militant Islamists have been screaming it from the rooftops for over 20 years. But let me tell you this: if the Muslim community as a whole DOES NOT start speaking out against this kind of terrorism, the West WILL fix it for them, and it will be dirty, fast, and rough. Violent acts against Muslims will no doubt increase: it's what happens when you attack and corner some of the toughest citizens in history.
You say:
"The Muslim teaching DOES NOT condone terrorist actions, whatever the media might suggest. Killing is wrong, according to their belief system." Ah, but you see, the "Muslim teaching" (you mean Islam?) DOES condone terrorism. The jihadists out killing Westerners, bin laden calling for the death of Americans, and Zarqawi beheading citizens in Iraq -- all in the name of Islam -- define the religion. The definition of an organization is defined by its followers' actions, not by the professors or imams. Actions speak louder than words. And to be perfectly honest, what a horrible argument: "Killing is wrong, according to their belief system." Well, geez, really? Refer to my above statement: The definition of an organization is defined by its followers' actions, not by the professors or imams. Here's a few other things the "Muslim teaching" teach:
3:151 We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
8:12 I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
You see what I'm getting at? All religions are violent, but it's to the degree of violence and extremism that leaders and followers will let it go to how it defines their message.
"What is needed is action to prevent the radical elements of ANY religion and ANY race. What this action is, I am afraid I am not enough of thinker to come up with, but I do not believe that further murder is the way forward. I wish I knew all the answers."
Why are you making such a generalized, blanket, politically correct statement? "radical elements of ANY religion and ANY race." What are you trying to say? It was militant, radical Islamists that killed your citizens. Not Buddhists, or Christians.
So you wonder aloud: "what this action is, I am afraid I am not enough of thinker to come up with but I do not believe that further murder is the way forward." What you are advocating here is appeasement. I think you are conflicted here. You want this all to end but you aren't willing to go through the nastiness that has to happen for us to be free from this Islamic threat. And, by "further murder" do you mean we should not respond to these attacks? I would like you to clarify before I continue. |
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trumpet356
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Joined: 17 Nov 2003
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Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| bj wrote: | Hi
Why restrict terrorism to Islamic? Heck we've had bombs going off in UK cities since way before the Islamics set about us. I don't think the victims cared which group or nationality was killing/maiming them.
The only reason might be if a person would like to single out one group more than another - but they are all the same, why differentiate? |
I think Pipes is making the point that the government in the UK DOES differentiate - alot. As you've said, they are absolutely nails when it comes to a response to IRA. Pipes makes the case that that same government seems curiously unresolved to apply the same measures to Islamic terrorism.
What a sad irony that the French (of whom Patton once said, "I'd rather have a German division in front of me, than a French one behind me") are the tough guys in this struggle. But are even they tough enough? |
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bj
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 580
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpet356 wrote: |
I think Pipes is making the point that the government in the UK DOES differentiate - alot. As you've said, they are absolutely nails when it comes to a response to IRA. Pipes makes the case that that same government seems curiously unresolved to apply the same measures to Islamic terrorism.
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Hi
The analysis I have been seeing here in the US is that the current attacks are secondary affairs to operations that were previously broken up by the "intelligence" services.
Also it seems the chemist involved with these attacks has had training in the UK and the US has Egyptian connections. Added to this the 3 suicide bombers all went to the Islamic school set up by Bin Laden in Lahore, Pakistan.
Earlier you quoted that UK was accused of harboring terrorists by Pakistan, US and Egypt amongst others yet in these incidents there are strong connections to those countries who accuse the UK.
Apparently many suicide bombers have been to that same school in Lahore. If Pakistan are so concerned about terrorism, how did such a place exist?
In breaking up earlier operations by Islamic groups I'd suggest that the UK govt had been alot more active against Islamic terrorists than the folk who had whip rounds for the IRA in the US. It all depends sadly on a government's and population's perspective of situations at a certain time.
I just don't think these matters are so black and white.
all the best
Brian Jones |
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The Glidd
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Joined: 22 Aug 2003
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Location: Humanity Towards Others
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| You're either with us, or against us. |
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trumpet356
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Joined: 17 Nov 2003
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Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| bj wrote: | I just don't think these matters are so black and white.
all the best
Brian Jones |
bj: I have a brother who's 6'2", and about 350lbs. Lately he's been diagnosed with the onset of diabetes. He was once a great athlete, and he is a great guy, and has young kids that will need for him to be around for quite some time. I get pissed when I see him eating crap, not exercising, etc. He's too cool not to give himself every opportunity at a great existence (and by extension, to allow us to enjoy him for many years to come).
I feel exactly that way about the Brits. I don't know enough about your inner security/political workings to advise (like I might on a diet, for example) with any certainty; it's just that when I read stuff like this from multiple sources, other than just Pipes, I worry for our brothers on the other side of the pond.
My posts aren't "accusations" that you guys are screwing up the rest of the world or anything. In fact, even if it is true that the British gov't is lax in internal security in this area, you guys have STILL done more to make the world a better place than just about any other nation out there. No, we're just concerned for your safety, and for the continued and thriving existence of your country, and your way of life. Hence my posts that point out a possible blind spot in your govt's internal political mindset towards Islamic terrorism.
And of course I have no use for anyone advocating violence through the IRA, and I'm Irish!
So, knock off the Taco Bell and McDonalds, and get out there and start putting in some miles on the track, eh? 
Best to you,
Joe |
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placebo11
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Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 1568
Location: texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpetmike wrote: |
If last Thursday had been designed to kill a large number of people, they stuffed up.
It was, I believe, a message that we should fear them - that is what they want. www.werenotafraid.com is our response. |
Excuse me, but I do not believe the terrorists are shaking in their boots because of a silly little website. You honestly think they care about this? Come on. It's sort of like the UN passing a resolution condemning terrorism. Oh yeah, that'll do it. |
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cjdjazztpt
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| Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| placebo11 wrote: | | trumpetmike wrote: |
If last Thursday had been designed to kill a large number of people, they stuffed up.
It was, I believe, a message that we should fear them - that is what they want. www.werenotafraid.com is our response. |
Excuse me, but I do not believe the terrorists are shaking in their boots because of a silly little website. You honestly think they care about this? Come on. It's sort of like the UN passing a resolution condemning terrorism. Oh yeah, that'll do it. |
For once I agree with placebo11.
While you guys are creating websites to "combat" terror, the terrorists are building bombs.
If you aren't scared then fine, but trying to tell a terrorist you're not scared is going to only determine them more. |
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trumpet356
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Joined: 17 Nov 2003
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Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| cjdjazztpt wrote: | For once I agree with placebo11.
While you guys are creating websites to "combat" terror, the terrorists are building bombs.
If you aren't scared then fine, but trying to tell a terrorist you're not scared is going to only determine them more. |
Yep, a peaceful religion. Check this out:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0705/glick071705.php3
What's amazing is not the nonesense from the pulpit; it's the sheep in the audience, just matter-of-factly lapping it up. And these are the "moderates" we expect to stand with us to help root out the terrorists in our midst? |
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Chris4
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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It's Back!!
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trumpet356
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpet356 wrote: | Daniel Pipes had this to say:
"Yesterday's explosions mark the end of the "covenant of security." Let's hope they also mark the end of an era of innocence, and that British authorities now begin to preempt terrorism rather than wait to become its victims." http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0705/pipes2005_07_08.php3
My fear is that this "era of innocence" still exists for too many UK'ers. |
Pipes also said that the UK was probably the weakest against Islamic Radicals, and France was - among ALL Western countries - the toughest. Here's more evidence supporting the latter:
"The gulf between British and French treatment of preachers of hatred and violence was thrown sharply into focus yesterday when France announced the summary expulsion of a dozen Islamists between now and the end of August.
A tough new anti-terrorism package was unveiled by Nicolas Sarkozy, the interior minister and a popular centre-Right politician.
Nicolas Sarkozy: 'We have to act against radical preachers'
His proposals reflect French determination to act swiftly against extremists in defiance of the human rights lobby, which is noticeably less vocal in France than in Britain.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Content/displayPrintable.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/30/ncleric30.xml&site=5 |
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| OK, so if France is so tough when does England fall? |
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