e-flat in Haydn Concerto!

trumpetgeek234 · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 8:15 am Post subject:

What value does this note have, when playing the Haydn in front of judges??
I can imagine, that this note is the only part of the piece that will show the judges how your range is.
According to this, would it make sense to play the Haydn even if it is not sure that this note will be hit? Do you guys put that much importance on that note?
PB

a441 · Veteran Member Joined: 12 Mar 2002 Posts: 108

It's a macho thing! If you play the piece beautifully and miss the Eb, it's not that big of a deal.

You don't want to aim for that note though. People can tell if you are gearing up just for that note and blast it out. It shouldn't sound like it stands out, alone. It's got to be tasteful, and in the context of your performance. Many young players will do whatever they need to to get that note out.

If you use your air correctly and do a slight crescendo into it...you won't miss it.

I see you're writing from Germany....do you play this on a Bb rotary? I know that you have to do that for some auditions over there. Way more challenging then an Eb trumpet!!!

Good luck!

doitallman · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:22 am Post subject:

Hey if it means anything when I was in High school I performed Haydn for allstate and I missed the Eb and guess what I still got the best score. It's just one note on the whole thing, besides there are other parts that show off your range. Just do a great job on everything else. What a441 said about not fixating on it is completely right.

Guest · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 9:40 am Post subject:

Maybe I'm missing something here, but the E flat is part of the concerto. Missing it makes your performance incomplete. This might sound revolutionary but if you can't play it comfortably and consistently why don't you choose something else with a lesser range requirement? There are many other possibilities.

trickg · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:11 am Post subject:

Why not take it down an octave? Color me stupid, but isn't it about the musical experience and not about the note? When I was in HS I wanted to play the solo but knew that I didn't have a prayer to know that I was going to hit that note under pressure, besides which, even if I did hit it, it certainly wouldn't have been musical. My solution was to take the whole line down an octave until the next phrase, which starts on Eb. Yeah, maybe it detracted from the overall effect, but it was still musical and I won the competition anyway.

There are times that you should go for it and there are times to play it safe and in my humble opinion, the Eb in the Hayden is one of the times to play it safe unless you can nail it 10 times in a row without a doubt.

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Patrick Gleason

[ This Message was edited by: trickg on 2002-08-13 13:12 ]

trumpetgeek234 · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:12 am Post subject:

thanks for the response, this takes away a lot of the fear of missing that one note.
Hey bachagain, I have to play this for an audition, so I don't have a choice here! Maybe not audition at all? NO!!
I am not saying that I WILL miss the note, but I just wanted to know about the importance of that note.

a441 · Veteran Member Joined: 12 Mar 2002 Posts: 108

I Agree....you don't WANT to miss anything. However, you don't want one note to make or break a performance. If you are fixated on the Eb and thinking about it before it comes, chances are you are going to miss other stuff. And, if the Eb doesn't go well, you don't want to sit and dwell on that, because you'll miss stuff after it because of lack of concentration.

My point is, don't be so concerned with it...put your practice time in on it. When it's showtime.....play the piece and make it beautiful. If you go into an audition thinking about the Eb, you're going to spoil the rest of the piece by lack of concentration.

Don't feel you can't play the piece because of one note!!! That's a defeatest attitude and that will haunt you when you get to harder music...and most other concerto's are more difficult than the Haydn.

DaveH · Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861

Not too long ago, I believe I heard a recording of this piece played on a radio broadcast. Listening to the overall sound, I am almost sure that the player was probably not using a Bb trumpet; rather a trumpet in another key. Needless to say, whoever was playing it on the recording(don't think that information was given)played it flawlessly.
Was this piece intended for trumpet in another key? It seems to me that it might sound best when played with the more delicate sound that might be achieved on a higher key(not Bb) instrument - and the Eb wouldn't be such a problem in that case?

[ This Message was edited by: DaveH on 2002-08-13 14:18 ]

a441 · Veteran Member Joined: 12 Mar 2002 Posts: 108

It' written in the key of Eb. Playing it on an Eb trumpet is commonplace throughout the world. It's not nearly as difficult on an Eb trumpet. Sometimes, in Germany, they request it performed on a Bb rotary trumpet. Not easy when rotary isn't your primary horn!!!

Nicholas Dyson · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:31 am Post subject:

The piece is most commonly performed by professionals on an Eb trumpet. As we all know, that's not always a possibility. The Eb isn't any easier on any other horn, as playing the smaller horns doesn't make range do anything either way - more or less.

I think A441 has it right, if you over think things around that Eb, it will become your self fulfilling profecy. Don't worry about it, and just concentrate on making music.
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Ottawa, Canada

trumpetgeek234 · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:36 am Post subject:

i think that using an e-flat horn on this is sort of like cheating. It makes things to easy. Over here in Germany it is almost always played on Bb (rotary and piston). Also on auditions the Bb is required. I guess it is hardest to be played on a big horn.
Also what do you do if you don't own an e-flat horn in America? I don't think that owning an e-flat horn can be expected!
PB

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetgeek234 on 2002-08-13 14:40 ]

bobwhite · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:54 pm Post subject:

I'd like to point out that on the recent Metropolitan Opera audition list, Haydn on Bb trumpet was requested.

While I can't be totally sure, a friend of mine who studies with Mark Gould said that the idea was that playing the Haydn in a nice, light, stylistic way on Bb is something a professional trumpet player should be able to do. Food for thought.

Let's be honest; the "high Eb" is not the most difficult aspect of the concerto. If you can play the sixteenth note runs before the cadenza really cleanly and effortlessly, you probably don't have a problem playing the high note.

If it's an issue - the hard truth is that the piece is over your head right now. If you've got to play it for the audition, fair enough, but realize the true lesson to be learned from the experience. A good piece of advice might be to just really sing in your mind as you play.
Don't be shy, and go for it.

Maybe check out Chris Gekker's article on "Progression" in the recent ITG journal, too. After this audition is done, take a step back, work on Neruda, then Hummel, then Haydn and listen to a lot of Haydn and Mozart pieces to absorb the language. Just a suggestion.

Nicholas Dyson · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 2:04 pm Post subject:

a441 · Veteran Member Joined: 12 Mar 2002 Posts: 108

Yes...the MET did want Haydn on a Bb. Very rare for this country...but...if you play it well on Bb, there is no doubt you can do it beautifully on Eb.

As for cheating....If 10 equally great players are up for an audition and 1 guy feels like playing the Haydn on Bb while the others use Eb, there is a HUGE chance that he/she is going to do themself disservice when trying to win the gig.

It is easier on Eb (the sixteenth note runs) and your objective in music, other than playing musically should be to make it sound effortlessly. You're not going to fool people when you get to a high level. And, they will tell, even if you're playing the notes, if you are struggling.

On the other side of things...I've had to play the 2nd Mvt. only at some auditions. Many people choose to do that on a Bb to get a "thicker and lush" tone then is capable on the Eb.

But, when you have to do the whole piece...use an Eb if you can. You won't be dissapointed! The Eb really 'dances' on those quick runs MUCH easier than a Bb.

One last thing is, when you hear recordings of the Haydn, Hummel (Eb or E), Neruda, etc., 99.8% of the players recorded them on an Eb trumpet.

Just my 2cents

Guest · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 2:47 pm Post subject:

PB,
Sorry didn't know you were stuck with it as a requirement. I played it as an audition piece for both schools I considered for my BA, along with Macarena. That Eb in it was harder than the final, I think e natural, in the Mendez piece, especially if you wanted it to blend smoothly and not be too loud.

What I found to be the most difficult was the end of the second movement with those 5-6 naked notes all in a row. I still don't know what to do to make them sound anything but lame.

Good luck, and I'm sure if you can do everything else musically you'll do fine. Be glad they didn't specify the Brandeburg.

[ This Message was edited by: Bachagain on 2002-08-13 17:48 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:31 pm Post subject:

I know of no other instrument on which players miss so many high register notes. Or if they don't exactly miss them, silence might have been better than the way the note comes out. But that's the problem with high notes. They're the hardest to hit, but they still have to be played in tune, with a good sound and musically. Learn how to do it easily and they will be fun. Struggle with them and it will define your personality.

It reminds me of clarinet players that squeak from time to time and don't seem to think anything of it. After working with clarinet players that NEVER squeak you never want to go back with someone who does. Same thing with the trumpet, if you're not sure you'll make it, take it down. And make the decision before you start the piece.

pedaltonekid · Heavyweight Member Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1711

The Eb should be an important note because it is the climax of a phrase. Do your best to play it well, but do not focus on it before you get to it or after you nail it. Stay in the present time.

For optimal effect play a cadenza that goes up to an F. It lets the judges know that range is not a problem and that you have mastered the piece - assuming everything else is played well.
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kcrw · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 7:52 pm Post subject:

Maybe this is a dumb question, but aren't all questions good ones? What movement is this "E flat" in? I'm playing the second movement for my college audition. There's a high B flat, but I'm playing it on a Bb trumpet and maybe I'm thinking in a different key than you guys. Or maybe I dunno what I'm talking about. That happens quite frequently.

Casey Welty

clarion89 · Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 8:12 pm Post subject:

Hello,

I've read through this thread and think that there is alot of good advice being passed around. I just wanted to add a few things that I would like throw into the mix.

1) Listen to Sergie Nakariakov's recording of the Haydn. I'm almost certain he is playing the piece on a B-flat trumpet.

2) Work on some range exercises: two octave scales & arpeggios, Earl Irons etudes, Caruso routines, etc. Use an exercise that you are comfortable with that will help you attain the high E-flat, then put it into context with the solo. Try to build confidence within each practice session.

Because it is an audition, the panel will be listening for every note, every phrase and every nuance within the piece. Do your best to prepare physically and mentally and the performance should go fine. Good luck!!
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Matt Wirfel
"don't practice long, practice often" - Don Jacoby
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imma_star · Regular Member Joined: 28 Mar 2002 Posts: 29 Location: usa

I played the first movement for contest this past year for a solo competition. I had worked on getting the Eb by playing long tones [very soft to very loud to very soft] on E, Eb, and F above the staff. I played on a Bb trumpet, too. Everything was going good and I was sure I'd get up to the high note, but getting only to the D didn't make me disappointed. I think the judge knew that I could've gotten the Eb but just missed it. It's great if you can hit it, it's an awesome sound. Good luck!