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CG Benge on eBay



 
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:35 pm    Post subject: CG Benge on eBay Reply with quote

Check this out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7332408894&fromMakeTrack=true

I won it off of eBay. It plays great.
It belonged to Claude's son, Gary.

The interesting thing was that there was a prototype CG mouthpiece
with it that is much deeper than the current CG Personal and the shank was made to butt up against the leadpipe. With this in the CG Benge it plays similar to the CG Selmers I own. The mouthpiece says CG 7 S, but they probably started with that so the cup could be made into what it is now, which is a more straight V as opposed to the slightly bowled V in the CG Personal. I need to check the drill because it looks bigger than the #20 in mine too.

This was perhaps my best eBay purchase ever.

Jeff Purtle
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:42 am    Post subject: Some historic info on Claude's mouthpieces Reply with quote

Hi Jeff,

Congratulations on winning that horn! I sent you a congratulatory message through the eBay system as well.

The "S" designation on that mouthpiece refers to the "Shank". It should mean it is a Standard Morse taper, and is designed to fit the Benge's mouthpiece receiver. When you write that it touches the beginning of the leadpipe, do you mean that it fits snuggly, or can it be wiggled a bit? I had access to a "Benge Gordon Model S" mouthpiece a while ago, and it fit standard Morse Taper receivers just fine. But I now have a plain "Benge Gordon Model" (non- "S") that wiggles around when you put it in a standard receiver such as that on a Benge, Bach, or Schilke, because it was designed to fit the receiver on the old French Besson Meha (which it does perfectly fit - I have a '47 Meha).

Before the CG3, CG7, etc. series, the first mouthpiece marketed by Benge for Claude was called the "Benge Gordon Model". There were two versions - the "Benge Gordon Model S" and the "Benge Gordon Model". Jim New at Kanstul clued me in about what the "S" stood for and showed me using taper measurement devices how the taper differs on the "S" model compared to the non-"S" model.

The cups of both "Benge Gordon Model" mouthpieces were identical as were the backbores and throats - the cup shape laid somewhere between the later CG3 and CG7 mouthpieces. It was wider in diameter than the CG7, smaller in diameter than the CG3, deeper than the CG3 and shallower than the CG7. Basically, it was very similar to a Bach 5C, but like the later CG3, CG7, CG1 and CG10 mouthpieces, it had a slightly more V-Shape to it. I think the "Benge Gordon Model" represents a near exact copy of the modified Bach 5C Callichio customized for him, that Claude played for most of his studio years. I have two of these During his playing years, Claude used several different mouthpieces in his quest for the right one. At one time, he was even playing on a modified Bach 1 1/4C (big!). Callichio, and then later, Burt Herrick did the modifications for him. The mods usually involved opening the backbore to what Claude called "the Old Schmidt Backbore" (which I believe meant the current Bach #24 "Symphonic" Backbore, as the current "Schmidt #10 is a lot smaller than the #24), opening the throat to around a 19 or 20, and skeletonizing the rim area to make it like the cornet moutpieces of the old days (with the same shape as all the later CG mouthpieces including the CG Personal). Given the shape of the mass-marketed CG mouthpiece cups, I think it is possible that the customized mouthpieces that Claude did his playing work on probably had more V-Shaping to them then the standard Bach mouthpiece cup shapes.

It would be interesting to get a hold of the custom mouthpieces that Claude actually played on during his studio years and have them measured using the Kanstul Comparator system. It would have been nice if we knew the orderin which Claude progressed through these mouthpieces. But I'm afraid that information died with Claude.

Apparently, given your find, the early CG7 was also offered with the "S" taper and non-"S" taper. I do find it curious how the "S" mouthpiece you have hits the leadpipe when inserted. I wouldn't think it should.

As for any differences in the cup shape, I think it is quite possible that Claude had it made a bit deeper for Gary. Claude was heading in that direction with mouthpieces - as evidenced by his final design, the CG Personal - and he often experimented on the students that were closest to him.

My, this has gotten long! Enough for now!

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's interesting about the choice in shank tapers.
I used to have a CG 3S, which I used for the rim.
The rim on this CG 7 S feels identical to my CG Personal.
I don't ever switch mouthpieces, so I might not notice that much.

The current CG Personal, which I play, is about 2/3 as deep as this mouthpiece. The plating is off of the shank and it looks like somebody had messed with the shank and that the inside of the cup had been modified and replated.

What's also interesting is that the pads are cork in the top (under the finger buttons) and a washer that is half felt/half rubber for the ones inside the valves. It looks like some kind of alignment was done. Didn't Reeves used to use something like that? There are not any number markings or score marks like Reeves did to specifiy each part to each valve.

It doesn't have a third valve ring, but it has a first valve spring trigger throw. It looks like there never was a third valve ring. There also isn't a pinky hook for the right hand. It looks like there used to be one and it was removed and repaired with a slightly different color laquer.

Does anyone know the serial number of the last CG Benge made?
This is number 20000, which seems to be one of the last.
Does anyone else have a later numbered CG Benge?

Jeff Purtle
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a couple of those CG 7 that were customized. Claude gave them to me. One is really deep.
I thought the S meant Standard shank meaning that it would fit every horn except the CG Benge. That's probably why yours doesn't fit.
We used to wrap paper around the shank so the mpc would fit.

Eb
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought my first CG Benge from Claude in about 1980 (might have been 1981). Its serial number is 35567.

According to the info at http://www.thebrassbow.com/Serial.html your Benge was made in about 1976.

The 20,000 serial number is interesting. Most likely this horn was made for Claude's son personally by the people at Benge and given this serial number.

Enjoy it!

John

P.S. You should try my Mohan 7MV mouthpiece for your piccolo trumpet playing. Its rim, inner cup diameter, throat and backbore are identicalto the CG Personal you play on. The only difference is that although it shares the modified V-Shape Cup Design of the CG Personal, it has a slightly shallower depth. Compare it to the CG Personal on the Kanstul Comparator to see what I mean. When I was playing the CG Personal, I found that my 7MV really solidified my Piccolo trumpet's sound and feel. And since the rim is identical, using it on the pic and then going back to the CG Personal on your Bb is not a problem. See "CG Personal" and "Mohan 7MV" at:

http://kanstul.net/mpcJN/Compare/CompareIE.HTM
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric, I think you've just helped me to solve a mystery! (but perhaps it wasn't a mystery for you)

You're right! I just checked and both my "Benge Gordon Model" and my old "Benge CG7" mouthpieces fit my Benge CG trumpet and my 1947 French Besson Meha, but they bottom out in my Bach, my CG Selmer, and even in my Burbank Benge Large Bore!

This can mean only one thing: The CG Benge trumpet must not have come with the Standard Morse Taper Mouthpiece Receiver! It must have come with the same taper that came on the old French Besson Trumpets. (As most of you know, Claude's work horn during his Studio Years was a pre-WW2 French Besson Meha) So when the CG Benge was designed, not only did it have a copy of his French Besson Meha's Leadpipe, it also retained the old French Mouthpiece Receiver Taper! How strange!

I had never noticed that my Benge CG7 mouthpiece didn't fit any of my horns except the CG Benge, because I was still playing the CG Benge back in the mid '80's when I switched away from the CG7.

And subsequently, whenever I've played either of my CG Benges, I've never noticed that the standard taper mouthpieces don't fit correctly, because by definition, they will fit snuggly into the receiver - it's just that they will leave a wider-than-normal gap at the receiver, which can't be seen. Perhaps that is one of the reasons my CG Benge sounds brighter than my Burbank Benge, even though the Burbank was custom made with a .464" tube at the start of the Bell Pipe, just like the later CG Benge. I have always attributed the sound difference to the fact that my Burbank Benge has a bigger leadpipe than the French Besson-copied pipe on the CG Benge. I'm sure that is still part of the reason, but the increased gap between the mouthpiece and the leadpipe must make some difference, too.

I find it strange that they marketed the CG Benge with a non-standard mouthpiece receiver. And I find it even stranger that nobody seemed to know this back then. I'm sure Claude knew, but he never told me! I guess he figured I didn't need to know, since he had me playing on a CG7 that properly fit into my CG Benge.

If anyone out there has more info, I'd sure appreciate hearing it!

Cheers,

John Mohan
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One last tidbit of info:

I just checked a Kanstul CG3 I have (made just a few years ago) and it clearly comes with a Standard Morse taper. It bottoms out in both my CG Benge and my French Besson Meha.

So as such, though it might have the exact rim, cup, throat and bore of the Benge CG3, it doesn't not have the identical shank taper.

I think that about wraps up this topic for me, though if anyone knows anything they can add, I'd appreciate learning more.

Cheers,

John
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This modified Benge CG 7 S mouthpiece fits so far in the receiver of my CG Selmer that it goes inside the start of the leadpipe without seating in the receiver all the way. I don't want to damage or expand my leadpipe on the CG Selmer.

Jeff
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff_Purtle wrote:
This modified Benge CG 7 S mouthpiece fits so far in the receiver of my CG Selmer that it goes inside the start of the leadpipe without seating in the receiver all the way. I don't want to damage or expand my leadpipe on the CG Selmer.

Jeff


My guess is that althought the S designation normally would mean the mouthpiece was made for just about anything besides a CG Benge (meaning it should fit your CG Selmer), with this particular mouthpiece, the shank was resized (made thinner on the outside) to correctly fit Gary's CG Benge - meaning that it would therefore bottom out in the receiver of your CG Selmer just as you have found it does.

I just got of the phone with K.O. over at Bob Reeves (he says "Hi!") and he told me that it's probably still a Morse Taper (which determines the angle of the taper), but that the outer diameter of the shank area is slightly smaller than on what would be considered a standard trumpet shank.

Cheers,

John
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EricV
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Joined: 28 Jul 2011
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Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am just trolling through old posts here, a quiet day with some practice on the horn and staying in the a/c here in hot old australia!

I just came across this post where Jeff is asking for CG Benge serial numbers after 20000 and i have a CGBenge i got on ebay that is 26371 (just noticed the date of this thread...2005!!)

I guess no one is interested now some 15 years later!! Boy were there some arguments etc on here way back in the early days!!

Happy 2020 everyone.

Cheers
EricV
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