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Herbert L. Clarke



 
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Batman
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Joined: 24 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Citizens,
I have been on a quest for information on the various methods presented in the dedicated forums. How do the ideas and methodology of Herbert L. Clarke compare to the Claude Gordon methods?

/\0/
Batman
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As always, I'm not sure what you are getting at Batman, but Claude studied with Clarke and taught in the same manner and used the same materials.

I did study with Claude but not with Clarke so that's about the only comparison I can make.
Claude thought very highly of Clarke and spoke about him often at our lessons.
On the other hand he never mentioned Maggio and I never asked about him because I had never heard of him.

By the way when I first started my lessons with Carl Leach , a student of Claude, the first thing he did was correct my embochure.
And I've made embochure changes in my students when it is neccasary.

So you see, the CG school does address embochure as well as air and tongue level.
Just thought you'd find that interesting.
Eb
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ZeroMan
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does Batman have an ulterior motive? He has shown a bias against Gordon-advocates in the past, and accused them of being overly-defensive. Perhaps we should take his question at face value without giving him more negative ammunition?

I have read that Herbert Clarke was one of Claude Gordon's teachers. The way I understand it, much of what Mr. Gordon distilled much of what he learned from both Clarke and Maggio, presented in a logical and and organized form and passed it on his direct students (like yourself), as well as publishing it in his various method books.

I only offer what I hope is informed opinion, because I'm just starting out on Mr. Gordon's method, and I hope to eventually meet with a teacher who learned from Mr. Gordon.

Batman, if you're reading this... if you will read this.... why don't you contact John Mohan directly. BTW, Mr. Bolvin, I certainly mean no disrespect to you, but I get the feeling Batman has made you a bit gun-shy.

[ This Message was edited by: ZeroMan on 2002-08-24 05:31 ]
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I was just giving the Batman the benefit of the doubt, and in this case trying to help him in his "quest", whatever that is.
If he wants to use something against me, he can go right ahead for all the good it will do him. I really don't care that much.
It's just an internet chat room, not reality.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-08-22 10:36, Batman wrote:
Citizens,
I have been on a quest for information on the various methods presented in the dedicated forums. How do the ideas and methodology of Herbert L. Clarke compare to the Claude Gordon methods?

//
Batman


They compare very closely. Claude added to what Clarke taught the type of exercises he learned from Louis Maggio.

There are great similarities between Maggio and Clarke as well. The breathing with the Chest Up can be traced to both. The use of the tongue in channelling the air to play higher and lower was taught by both. The idea that the air does the work and the lips' only purpose is to vibrate was taught by both.

John Mohan
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Batman
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Joined: 24 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Citizens,
I was in error, that is why I am editing this post, I see John has replied. I am sorry John, thankyou. EB, you brought up the topic of embouchure in your first reply and I would like to have some clarification. You have said that you have changed a students embouchure when needed. What criteria do you use to determine if a change is needed and what do you recommend they change to?

/\0/

//

[ This Message was edited by: Batman on 2002-08-24 10:54 ]
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ZeroMan
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Joined: 21 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-08-24 01:03, Batman wrote:
Citizens,
I was just curious, I have read some things about Gordon and I have read some things from students of Clarke. Before I formed an opinion I wanted to know what the Gordonians on the TH web site had to say. You really didn't offer much other than to say that I had a ulterior motive for posting the Gordon forum. Ok, I'll go away.



The Gordon Forum's moderator *himself* addressed your question!

Did you not read it?

I was the only person who accused you of an ulterior motive (sorry for originally misspelling it). Although I hardly count as an official voice on this forum, I tried to answer your question too.

Since I do not count as an official or experienced voice, I sincerely hope you don't take my reaction as the official one. That would be bad faith on your part, especially when John Mohan himself politely gave you enough information to answer your question.

I'm sorry for coming off as a jerk. Really!!!! Don't think ill of these people because of what I have done, OK? As an outsider, I do think you have been rather mendacious towards the people on this particular forum, but that is just my opinion.... mine alone.

[ This Message was edited by: ZeroMan on 2002-08-24 05:40 ]
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Batman
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zero,
I have repented and edited my previous post.

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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote: What criteria do you use to determine if a change is needed and what do you recommend they change to?

Here are some of the embochure problems that I regularly encounter:
Too low--in the red
Smiling or stretching back
Too open
Too much movement-two or more settings
Air pockets in bottom lip

These are all problems that I've corrected in my students. Some people can play fine with one of these maladies, but most eventually hit a brick wall in their development and need to make a correction or sometimes a complete overhaul.

As to "what do you change it to?" part of your question, you're gonna have to clarify that a bit, as I don't subscribe to the school of embochure types and I also don't make wholesale changes in my students. If the students embochure is malfunctioning, then we take the necessary steps to correct the problem.

Eb
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ZeroMan
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-08-24 10:56, Batman wrote:
Zero,
I have repented and edited my previous post.



You're a gentleman Batman. I wasn't. I apologize for coming after you so harshly, and I hope John Mohan and Eric Bolvin share with you the information you are looking with no lingering animosities. I'll bug out now and let the actual Gordon students do the talking. Both those gentleman personally studied with Mr. Gordon, so you're pretty much getting it from the horse's mouth.
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Batman
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem mate,

I have done much searching of Clarke material and knowing that Gordon was a student of his leads me to wonder how much Clarke is in Gordon. It seems that over time students of the great teachers will focus on a particular area where they feel alot of emphasis should be. Not to say they don't understand or feel the other is less important, they just seem to neglect it, over time these points become an obscure part of the lesson to be used when all else fails. I am going to do some more reading and hope to add something more later.

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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to see that you edited your other post, Batman. I was wondering about that!

I'm pretty sure that Claude kept his "Clarke Stuff" pretty much intact. He had great respect for Mr. Clarke and gives him most of the credit for his own (Claude's) success. Claude rarely mentioned Maggio to me in my lessons - and I think when he did, it was almost always only in response to direct questioning.

Also, what and how Maggio taught really wasn't so different from what and how Clarke taught. Their opinions and methods concerning air power development are virtual clones (holding last notes of exercises "as long as there is air and longer with an attempted crescendo as one runs out of air" to really give the blowing, squeezing muscles a good work-out), their explanation of the way the tongue must move to control the pitch is identical (as is Colin's, Smith's, William's, Irons', Doc Severinsen's, Arturo Sandoval's, and most all of the "Greats" from back then and today), and many of the famous quotes attributed to them are the same ("the lip's only purpose is to vibrate", "let the air do the work", etc.).

Maggio's big contribution exercise-wise was/is definitely used by Claude Gordon and his students (the "Systematic Approach" Part 1 and Part 2 Exercises), but with important developmental additions the way Claude wrote them.

Also the Claude Gordon Breathing Exercises were something he learned from Maggio (this info he volunteered to me), but Claude's version is modified and provides more strength and air capacity development then the way Maggio assigned them. In Maggio's original version of the Breathing Exercises, one fills up for a certain number of steps (while walking), then blows out for a certain number of steps, then repeats the process. In Claude's assigned version of these, one breathes in for the certain number of steps (while walking), HOLDS FULL OF AIR for a certain number of steps, blows out for a certain number of steps, and then CONTINUES TO "HOLD EMPTY" for a certain number of steps, then repeats the process. In Claude's version, one gets more of a work-out, believe me!

To summarize, Claude spent about 4 times longer studying with Clarke then he did with Maggio. Claude's only reason for ceasing his studying with Clarke was that Clarke died. Although Claude felt studying with Maggio was a positive experience, he attributed most of his success on trumpet to Clarke. Most of what he assigned his personal students, and most of the assigned routines if any individual uses Claude's "Systematic Approach" exactly as written, is Herbert L. Clarke inspired material.

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
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