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Play until no sound comes out



 
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MDM
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Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:45 pm    Post subject: Play until no sound comes out Reply with quote

Hi.

I have just started CC's method and am into my third week. So far, I have seen slight improvements in range and stamina, but the thing which has really impressed me is the solidity of tone and the overall improvement in the quality of sound I now have when I play. Can't wait to see what things are like 6 months down the line!

I have a question regarding the advice in MCFB that during the seconds you should play until no sound comes out. This does not happen for me. Instead, when I reach my limit, I can physically feel my embouchure move (at the corners) and collapse, but the sound continues as a weak and feeble buzzy noise which falls off a third to a fifth as I continue to blow through the interval that I have reached.

My natural instinct would be to have stopped on the previous interval, when I made the notes, but the sound went very thin and weak. However, following the advice that you should disregard the tone and play on, I find myself in the situation that I just described.

I suspect that I am maybe not using enough air(?), but am concerned slightly by the advice given in MCFB for the last two intervals of the seconds: 'don't force'. My failure point occurs at a lower pitch than this at the moment, but I am concerned that I may be forcing the last interval that I play, and hence am not doing myself any good. However, as my sound doesn't stop, but falls off in a sort of glissando, I'm not sure where to stop: at the failure point, or at the (predictable) interval before?

I would really appreciate some insider knowledge on this, as I have no wish to self-destruct!

Thanks,
Mike.
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop when you fail when

physically feel my embouchure move (at the corners) and collapse, but the sound continues as a weak and feeble buzzy noise which falls off a third to a fifth as I continue to blow through the interval that I have reached.

Stop at the failure point. Don't try to predict when that point may occur and stop too early. If you did that for a few hours, you would self destruct but you are only doing it for 8 beats
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MDM
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Joined: 23 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's great - thanks for the quick reply. I'm glad that I'm doing it right - I can't believe how quickly this Caruso stuff has stabilised my embouchure and fattened out my tone.

I'm now 10 months into a comeback after a 20 year lay-off, and I'm addicted. I'm enjoying playing now so much more than I did when I was a kid. I'm lovin' it...
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PH
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Joined: 26 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly.
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LAF
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Joined: 18 May 2007
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Location: NYC

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all
I'd like to add these thoughts------if you always stop where you feel the body wants to stop you are not showing your body what you want it to learn. Play the interval studies until no sound comes out ( unless of course you are feeling pain)......this way you are showing your body WHAT you want it to learn and WHEN you want your body to do it. The order of gaining more physical/muscular control is always 1. first you cant do it 2. then you can but it sounds and feels bad 3. THEN you can do it and it sounds and feels good.
remember to blow into the small end
Laurie Frink
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MDM
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eureka!

Thanks for the additional thoughts Laurie - my little 'collapse' was only a tone today, and rather than stop there I carried on anyway. Guess what? No sound came out! (Well, apart from a little squawk that flickered in and out when I wasn't looking!)

Funnily enough, I felt stronger after this session than after any of the others when I stopped a little earlier. Weird, but encouraging.

After reading some of the advice in this forum, I think that I'll try to avoid having any expectations. I'll just keep following the path, and see where I end up sometime in the future.

Que sera sera.
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been soooo many times in my trumpet playing life that I have had the feeling "this is it, I got it now, its all downhill". Every time it was nonsense. You gotta just do it and don't overthink.
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LAF
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you say:
Well, apart from a little squawk that flickered in and out when I wasn't
looking!----

where there is smoke there is fire.....these little squawks indicate that the lips have 'touched upon' the position of the note you were trying to play. If you had stopped before that, the embouchure would not have experienced that position. Over time, as you 'touch upon' the note, the lips discover the balanced position of that note--the pressure comes off by itself and the note becomes a 'real' sound. then the same process begins on the note above. remember: first you cant do it, then you can do it but it doesnt sound good (a little squawk) THEN you can do it and it sounds good----this order of improvement is the same on every level
laurie
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Where there's smoke there's fire." I can still hear Carmine say that and I remember the confidence it inspired in me.

I worked all weekend and missed this great thread. Lots of good information. I'd like to add just a little more in support.

When I would play for Carmine and I'd hear just the tiniest hint of the note or pitch I was trying to play, Carmine would say "keep going." He knew that I was exploring new territory and acquiring data about the balance required. Eventually, the sensory and strength information is very familiar and you can play at that level and begin exploring new notes.

Best of luck on your comeback.

Alan
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MDM
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everybody for the great advice and encouragement.

A month ago, I was struggling to hit B flat above the staff, and occasionally forcing out a C on a good day. This week, I have taken to playing pedals and easy, relaxed scales in the 20 minute break between the two run-throughs of the seconds. Over the last 2-3 days I have been playing up to a C, and today a C sharp with no effort whatsoever - they just quietly and easily slipped out mid scale! My usable range is still obviously a bit lower than this, but the signs that I am on the right track are looking very promising.

Those comments regarding squawks, smoke and fire: brilliant! They have helped me in trying to understand what is going on, and how to build an intelligent practice routine. A few days of hints, squawks and rattly C - C sharps, and then a good one just appears out of nowhere!

Now where is that D hiding?...
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question along similar lines - for the larger intervals (say 4ths and larger) I find that I will have no sound on the higher note, but the lower still sounds. Is this the time to stop and reset?
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, when any part of the interval fails to come out or comes out incorrectly, stop, rest a few seconds, and begin again from where you left off. For example:

note - ____ - note
note - note - ____, or
____ - note - note

However, if you get any hint of the note for the duration, continue until you actually get a failure.

Alan
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trumpetista
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Joined: 01 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:54 pm    Post subject: A Logical approach Reply with quote

LAF wrote:
you say:
Well, apart from a little squawk that flickered in and out when I wasn't
looking!----

where there is smoke there is fire.....these little squawks indicate that the lips have 'touched upon' the position of the note you were trying to play. If you had stopped before that, the embouchure would not have experienced that position. laurie


I see that this is an old post; however, many of the comments made here reflect the reason that I appreciate the Caruso method so much. I was casually introduced to the Caruso method by Terry Everson at a time when my embouchure was relatively weak and I lacked consistency (a lot of fracking and "chance" involved in my playing). Caruso's approach to strengthening the embouchure is very logical and methodical - there is no voodoo involved. It is very reassuring to practice knowing that what you are doing will actually make a difference in your playing. Thank you Laurie and anyone who has helped to continue the Caruso legacy.
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