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healey.cj
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 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: |
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chopissimo
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Joined: 04 Jan 2006
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: |
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I see the point and agree, if we think of "effortlessly" as "coming easily" or "efficiently", since the production of any note on a brass instrument requires some degree of strength.
What I understand is that we need to develop the control and focus to get the notes out without "forcing" them, especially in the high register. So it is about strength instead of force.
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Fran�ois
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'48 Conn 22B New York Symphony
'68 Conn Director (still going strong!)
Playing "bop" is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing.
-- Duke Ellington |
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Derek Reaban
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Joined: 08 Jul 2003
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Location: Tempe, Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Chris,
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Hows that sit with you derek? |
Perfect!
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You can't play high efortlessly by practicing playing high until it's effortless (i've tried that experiment for 20 years), you have to practice playing effortlessly until you can do it high." |
I too tried that experiment for many years, and when I realized that it was a dead end, and changed my thinking, I really started to see my playing take off.
I’ll post some other quotes from other players about this when I have the time, but your quote from Roddy’s book is exactly what this topic is about.
Thanks for posting it!
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Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest |
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tomba51
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Joined: 24 Nov 2001
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Location: Hilton Head, SC
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Chris said;
I think the most important thing i have read about range development came from an email someone sent to Roddy about what his teachings have made him realise...which Roddy put in one of his books:
"...the whole "Roddy way" seemed to click. The only way to play high well and musically is to play as close to effortlessly as you can get. You can't play high efortlessly by practicing playing high until it's effortless (i've tried that experiment for 20 years), you have to practice playing effortlessly until you can do it high."
Chris, this reminds me very much of what Tiger Lewis says about range development. Tiger used to post a lot here, now he hardly ever posts anymore. But he has a different method of developing range than most people. Instead of trying to increase your range, Tiger advocates playing only in your comfortable range. Let's say your comfortable range is up to high "C". Tiger would say to you that you should not attempt to increase that range by trying to expand your range above high "C". He would instead advocate practicing EVERYTHING up to high "C". That would include long tones. lip slurs, tonguing exercises, melodic pieces in that range, EVERYTHING. At some point, you will come to the realization that it's not that hard to play up to high "C". That's when you then start to do the same thing up to high "E". After another period of time, that will become easy, and you take it up to the next level, and so forth. Therefore, you are never actually working to expand your range, you are trying to make the range that you already have as secure as possible. By doing that, you will expand your range without even trying.
I hope that I've summarized Tiger's philosphy accurately. Tiger, if you're lurking, perhaps you can correct any mistakes I may have made here.
Tom
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healey.cj
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Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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healey.cj
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:11 am Post subject: |
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healey.cj
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| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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TrpPro
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Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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Location: Riverview, FL
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| healey.cj wrote: |
I think the most important thing i have read about range development came from an email someone sent to Roddy about what his teachings have made him realise...which Roddy put in one of his books:
"...the whole "Roddy way" seemed to click. The only way to play high well and musically is to play as close to effortlessly as you can get. You can't play high efortlessly by practicing playing high until it's effortless (i've tried that experiment for 20 years), you have to practice playing effortlessly until you can do it high."
5. Aha Moment, Page 9. Embouchure Enhancement Book 4 (by Roddy Lewis)
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This line of thinking, of course, is the exact opposite of the Caruso approach to gaining command of the horn, which includes great high range, and which has worked well for many. In the Caruso approach the student doesn't wait for the range to become effortless, he makes it become effortless: proactive. |
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healey.cj
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: |
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TrpPro
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| healey.cj wrote: | | hmmm... but tell me this... Are the notes in the staff effortless before the notes above the staff? |
No. Notes are practiced in the staff that are not necessarily effortless at the same time that notes are attempted above them.
| healey.cj wrote: | | Its still a progressive expansion of ease outwards from the middle register. |
Well, of course. You have to start someplace and Caruso starts with the second line G.
| healey.cj wrote: | | If you can't play the G in the staff with ease are you really going to be able to play the G 8va with ease? |
You learn to play all the notes with ease, including the G 8va, even though lower notes may not be responding with ease before this happens. This is why I said that the Caruso approach is the opposite of the Roddy quote. With Caruso you go after the notes. You make it happen. You don't wait for it.
| healey.cj wrote: | | I can see how it could work, |
There is no question that it does work.
| healey.cj wrote: | | but would you start playing the horn at high C and work down or would you start at G in the staff where the lips are 'neutral' and work outwards? |
You obviously know that Caruso starts with second line G and works up and down. But the lips are not neutral at the G.
| healey.cj wrote: | | Also, did you learn to 'play' up there before you had mastered the 6 note exercise for that range? |
What do you mean by "mastered the 6 notes?"
| healey.cj wrote: | | The Caruso way of allowing the lips to move into their correct position and learn the vibrate fully through repetition and breath attacks is an interesting approach and can plausibly work like you said. |
Fifty years ago it may have rightfully been viewed as "plausible" but I think today most realistic trumpet pedagogues have conceded that the approach is well founded and does work due, if for no other reason, to the sheer number of success stories.
| healey.cj wrote: | | Again, i guess it just comes down to the fact that there are many paths to the mountain top. |
True. And some work faster than others and for a wider range of disparity in students. |
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Jerry Freedman
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Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 2476
Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Pops wrote: | .
One reason why strength is mentioned so much is because a great many players here are comeback players and younger students.
Many of these expect for some reason to still have muscle strength even after 20-30 years of NOT playing.
They complain about their range and endurance yet they can't hold a pencil for even 30 seconds. (This is weak and shouldn't give better than a G on top of the staff usable range.)
It is a good safe bet for most of those people.
The problem is that so many people read and remember the answers and NOT the questions.
Specific questions lead to specific answers and vague questions lead to vague answers.
If 80% of the questions come from comeback players and young students then 80% of the answers MAY NOT fit the players who play 2 hours a day every day for 20 years.
You need to know which group you are in and read the question that lead to the answer.
Also we are NOT set in stone.
If you have been working on it then the thing you needed most 2 months ago is different from the thing you need the most today. A technique/embouchure/idea that you couldn't do 2 months ago might work very well now. Once habits change then new things can work.
This is why some types of embouchure changes work best in many small stages and why a teacher will give different advice to 2 different players who seem to be the same to an outside observer. |
I have a question about this, Pops. How does this "just touching MMM"
embouchure work with the 3 dimensional tunnel embouchure that you speak about ( and Derek Reaban too). How can both coexist? How can you have a long aperture tunnel and just touching lips? How can you have compression with just touching lips. I sense a disconnect here. Could you clarifiy? |
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healey.cj
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Jerry Freedman
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Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't find it convincing. Not all effective embouchures are lip curl types |
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