• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Buzzing a la Reinhardt


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Donald S. Reinhardt
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator


Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6437
Location: AVL|NC|USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking about how many ideas are circulating concerning the "correct" way to buzz. I saw Bobby Shew give a clinic in 1980 and he advocated the "spitting seeds" method of starting a buzz (yes, he tongued his buzz). He was buzzing using his lips only, no mouthpiece.

Well, Doc had lots of guidelines about how to buzz correctly, and that is an important part of his Pivot System teachings.

He had us do it without the mouthpiece. He said to never tongue a buzz. We were to always use a wet embouchure. Trumpeters were encouraged to try to start on our "tuning C" -- 3rd space in the trumpet staff, but not lower than our 2nd line G. He advised us not to buzz on a fatigued embouchure. Anybody remember more of these guidelines?

I remember at my 3rd lesson he gave me the 4 buzzing categories and apologized for "having to do that." I'm eternally grateful to him for giving me that series. He told me that I had an embouchure he considered "too flabby" and that the buzzing procedures would firm it up, and would also improve my sound.

It's been a long time since I was given that assignment (1978), but I still use it whenever I feel that my chops aren't cooperating fully. It has a way of ironing out the wrinkles in my chops, so to speak, and makes me feel strong and (on occasion) even invincible on my horn.

I hate it when I go through periods when I "forget" about certain procedures that always put me back on my feet. I'm hoping that this forum will serve to remind me of things that I might otherwise be depriving myself of.

Anybody else have any thoughts on Doc's application of buzzing in his teaching?

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
DSR
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 267
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have tried to do Doc's buzzing routine, but I can never seem to get a buzz above that G when my airstream travel in a downward direction (as he says to do). Being a type IV upstream, will it be an impossibility for me to get above the G?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hairy james
Regular Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brendan "DSR", Buzzing higher takes lots of time and patience buy you can do it as long as you understand that its not going to happen overnight. I'v been buzzing daily for 20+ years and on a good day I might be able to "touch" a high "D" ( one note above high "C") probably the highest note I can buzz and hold is a high "C", but only when I'm fresh. remember buzzing takes far more embochure strength than actually playing. As far as Doc's buzzing routines are concerned you as an upsteam player should NEVER attempt to buzz and walk in to a note.Buzzing should always be done with the airsteam going in a downward direction, so you can see that a type IV trying to "walk in" while buzzing a note just can't work. Good Luck, Chris.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
walter
Veteran Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 428
Location: near Philadelphia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 10:23 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
hairy james
Regular Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walter, If you know for a fact that you are a downstream type I would be glad to help you in your search to remember Doc's buzzing routines. The one he gave only to downsteam players to firm up flabby mouthcorners and as he used to say "Take up excess baggage in the chin area." Was called the "Four Buzzing Catagories of the Pivot System." The rest of the routines are good for either upstream or downstream types. They are "The Pivot System Lip Compression Buzzing Routine." which is really two separate drills, one without the horn, and the other with the horn. I'm sorry I can't go in to more detail here we are talking about at least ten to twelve pages of text here. The good news is that all of these routines are listed in detail in Doc's book "The Encyclopedia of the Pivot System." The old black book is out of print, but you can get the new version from Charlie Colin or from Dave Sheetz. I suggest you get it from Dave because he has gone through the new version with a fine tooth comb and corrected a few mistakes and omissions. Happy Buzzing. Chris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MF Fan
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2002
Posts: 397
Location: The Great White North

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2002 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of buzzing questions:

I know Doc advocated doing all buzzing in a downstream manner, with the bottom lip tucked under the top lip, and said not to worry if this isn't the way you play when on the horn. I've read elsewhere that that you should buzz the same way you play, which seems more intuitive in terms of where the benefit would come from. What's the benefit of buzzing in a manner different than how you play?

For me personally, I think I'm a IIIA, so downstream buzzing is easy for me, however, when I play the horn, I generally push my lower jaw out to form a flat playing (teeth) surface. The horn is still has a slight downward slope, but not as extreme as a III. If I try to buzz with my lower jaw forward like when I play, I generally cuts off the buzz. Is that normal, or a sign that I'm doing something wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DSR
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 267
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2002 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MF,

I can relate. When I play horn (type IV), my jaw comes out. If I try to buzz with my jaw out it doesn't work. I need to let it recede a bit so I can do the free buzzing. I gather that this is why Type IIIs are the best buzzers...they play with their jaw receded and buzz in the same manner.

-Brendan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wilktone
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Asheville, NC

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2002 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I know Doc advocated doing all buzzing in a downstream manner, with the bottom lip tucked under the top lip, and said not to worry if this isn't the way you play when on the horn. I've read elsewhere that that you should buzz the same way you play, which seems more intuitive in terms of where the benefit would come from. What's the benefit of buzzing in a manner different than how you play?


I can relate to your question, but I think as an upstream player who used to play downstream, I have a good perspective on this.

If you happen to be a downstream player, particularly a type III embouchure, then the free buzzing would be much closer to how you actually play. Most brass players and teachers I've discussed this with who insist that you should buzz the same way you play happen to be type III performers, and so what they really are saying is how they play/buzz. You can't make that generalization for everyone.

I've messed around with free buzzing with the same lip position I play with, and it just screws me up. First of all, I end up doing strange stuff just to get a buzz happening, and it never relates with how I actually play. I've experimented with buzzing on a mouthpiece rim alone, which produces better results, but I haven't really followed through enough to say whether or not I'd recommend it for upstream players.

Buzzing, as I see it, is weight lifting for your chops. No matter what type you are, free buzzing in a downstream manner helps strengthen the embouchure muscles. I've used it myself to help endurance and range and recommended it with good success to students to also help cure weak mouth corners, air pockets in the lips, air leaks, and the smile embouchure.

Some are better at it than others. I've gotten better at it myself, but still peak out around a concert E flat above middle C (I'm a trombone player, so that may have some effect on my higher buzz as well). A couple of my students (ones a III and the other's a IIIB, I think) are better at it than I, but I still have a wider range than them on the horn, so I feel better.

Hope this helps!

Dave

P.S. What did Reinhardt say about mouthpiece buzzing? I've used it myself and with my students with good results (always relating it directly back to playing on the horn), but Doug Elliott recommended against it. Did he learn this from Reinhardt or was this something he came up with on his own?

[ This Message was edited by: Wilktone on 2002-10-03 19:33 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Wilktone on 2002-10-03 19:33 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
hairy james
Regular Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2002 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,

First off let me say that as a former Reinhardt student I think it's great what you are doing. Your intrest in Doc's teaching's, and the fact that you also have a lot on the ball as a teacher yourself is just fantastic. I hope your students realize just how lucky they are, they could have just as easily wound up with what Doc would have called "A page turning idot." Which is exactly what a one of my early teachers was! Despite the fact that this gentleman had played with several name bands, it took me years to undo all the damage he did to me early on.
About your buzzing the mouthpiece question, as far as I know the only time Doc ever said you should buzz your mouthpiece was on the third or the fourth step of the "Sensation Theory." Other than that I think he was against it. Why he was against it I couldn't tell you, I never asked. Maybe another former student out there can weigh in on this one.
You mentioned you were interested in Doc's routines, if you call me I'll be glad to help you with anything I can. By the way I have all the cheek puff routines too.
Chris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wilktone
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Asheville, NC

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2002 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
First off let me say that as a former Reinhardt student I think it's great what you are doing. Your intrest in Doc's teaching's, and the fact that you also have a lot on the ball as a teacher yourself is just fantastic. I hope your students realize just how lucky they are, they could have just as easily wound up with what Doc would have called "A page turning idot." Which is exactly what a one of my early teachers was! Despite the fact that this gentleman had played with several name bands, it took me years to undo all the damage he did to me early on.


Thanks! Actually, I have to thank all of you Reinhardt students (both on the Forum and the others I've been lucky enough to have contact with) for helping me learn about his teachings. After doing a lot of research about brass embouchures (and continuing to investigate others, no matter how wacky they might seem), the Pivot System has been the best method I've discovered that actually addresses every player's unique problems in a logical manner, but also accurately describes what I've seen in players who happened to naturally have everything fall into place.

As far as teachers go, I've been extremely lucky. I did have a couple of brass teachers who out of ignorance actually hurt my embouchure rather than helping me. In every other respect they were such fine teachers that I managed to make good progress, in spite of my embouchure problems. I was also very lucky that I had a teacher in graduate school who knew enough to know what he *didn't* know, and sent me to Doug Elliott for help. That first lesson with Doug was a major turning point in my teaching, as well as my playing.

Quote:
About your buzzing the mouthpiece question, as far as I know the only time Doc ever said you should buzz your mouthpiece was on the third or the fourth step of the "Sensation Theory." Other than that I think he was against it. Why he was against it I couldn't tell you, I never asked. Maybe another former student out there can weigh in on this one.


If I recall Doug's words well enough (this was mentioned really as a passing comment, and I didn't think about it enough to ask him to elaborate more), he stated that buzzing in the mouthpiece alone would change your lip position inside the mouthpiece cup enough to not directly relate to how you'd play in the horn, and that outweighed any possible benefits.

That may be true, but I've found mouthpiece buzzing to be a useful tool in my own practicing and teaching. First, I always have my students play on their instrument immediatly after buzzing on the mouthpiece, regardless of how and why we're doing this. Most often, I have them buzz a passage or exercise when they are either not supporting enough air or aren't focusing their embouchures on pitch.

I have picked up an idea that seems to help, from Sam Burtis, a former student of Carmine Caruso and a fine trombonist. Sam suggests that by mouthpiece buzzing we can find the best horn angle for a particular player, and even fine tune any angle changes that might happen between registers. By buzzing a pitch on the mouthpiece and sloting the horn into the mouthpiece while holding the buzz (without changing anything in the embouchure - the horn must conform to the angle of the mouthpiece and your shouldn't move your head to the mouthpiece) you can find the angle where the sound is most focused. This works particularly well with my french horn, euphonium, and tuba students, who get so used to having the instrument on their laps that they often have a completely wrong horn angle for what they should be playing with.

From doing this kind of work, I discovered that when I buzzed low on the mouthpiece I put a little more pressure on the left side of my lower lip and buzzing higher pitches I put more pressure on the right side of my top lip. I added this slight horn angle change with my pivot and it really has seemed to help keep the tone more open.

What do you experienced Reinhardt students think of this? How do you think Reinhardt would have responded to this?

Quote:
You mentioned you were interested in Doc's routines, if you call me I'll be glad to help you with anything I can. By the way I have all the cheek puff routines too.


I'm starting to brainstorm more ideas about putting together something to spread the word to the "general population" of brass players and teachers. Right now I'm leaning towards a CD ROM or web site as being the best way to get the information across, but a book or article(s) would help my academic career more (too many of the powers that be in academia still think the print media is the only way to go). Thankgiving break will likely be my chance to really get the ball rolling with that project. If anyone has ideas or wants to collaborate, please let me know either through email, phone or on this forum, and I'll keep in touch.

Chris, I'll try to give you a call tomorrow (Friday) about how to get a hold of more of Doc's routines.

Thanks again, everyone!

Dave
_________________
wilktone.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PC
Veteran Member


Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 398
Location: Trondheim, Norway

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hei, gentlemen,

I am really excited by reading about Doc's way concerning buzzing, as it is exactly the way I lip buzz everyday walking to my bus stop! I've gained a lot of endurance and some range from it as I don't have a lot of practice time during the week.

I was a bit concerned about the bit with the lower lip tucking under the upper one when ascending and feel comforted reading that this is actually normal. I now routinely buzz my way up to high C, pushing now on strong days to D, Eb above that. I also feel that mouthpiece buzzing doesn't give me much so I mostly dropped that. Lip buzzing, I start on middle C and work my way down a la Stamp (sorry, I don't know any of Doc's exercises!) all the way to B below double pedal C and then up to hich C-ish. I feel that practising pedals on the lips is quite fun and don't seem to be impeded in any way by it (could relate to my pivot type, I guess). This lip buzz I also use while driving to rehearsal as a warmup. I can only recommend it to everybody, I too in the beginning could not go any higher than E - F above tuning C and I really feel it has stregthened my lips.

Regards,
Pierre.

[ This Message was edited by: PC on 2002-10-04 03:41 ]

[ This Message was edited by: PC on 2002-10-04 03:41 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator


Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6437
Location: AVL|NC|USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-10-04 03:38, PC wrote:
I now routinely buzz my way up to high C, pushing now on strong days to D, Eb above that. I also feel that mouthpiece buzzing doesn't give me much so I mostly dropped that. Lip buzzing, I start on middle C and work my way down a la Stamp (sorry, I don't know any of Doc's exercises!) all the way to B below double pedal C and then up to hich C-ish. I feel that practising pedals on the lips is quite fun and don't seem to be impeded in any way by it (could relate to my pivot type, I guess). This lip buzz I also use while driving to rehearsal as a warmup. I can only recommend it to everybody, I too in the beginning could not go any higher than E - F above tuning C and I really feel it has stregthened my lips.

Hmmm, Doc instructed me to never buzz below a 2nd line G for trumpet (concert F) . . . and he also told me not to worry if I couldn't buzz as high as I could play.

As far as buzzing for a warmup on the way to a rehearsal, I only remember Doc warning me to not use buzzing as a substitute for my warmup. If you've been doing this for a long time, you've probably conditioned yourself to be able to do it, and I suppose it's probably okay.

I would not recommend to any trumpet student to buzz as low as you're buzzing. Maybe to someone who doubles on tuba and trumpet.

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PC
Veteran Member


Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 398
Location: Trondheim, Norway

PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again,

Well actually to be more precise, lip buzzing does not completely replace my warm-up but reduces it to the bare minimum: 2-3 long tones, some chromatics a la Clarke, and a quick taste of lip flex (all done in less than 5 min). If I don't buzz, I'll warm up more methodically for 20 min or so.

As for the low lip buzzing, Doc might be right that there is no point in doing it, I for sure cannot say if it has helped me in any way or not. Again, I do it just because I can and it seems fun to and does me no harm.

Cheers,
Pierre.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
MF Fan
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2002
Posts: 397
Location: The Great White North

PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2002 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that it matters, but I'm always skeptical when I hear people say they can buzz well above high C. I was surprised to find out that what I thought was buzzing a middle C, turned out to be a low C. I discovered this by "walking into the horn" while buzzing the note. The pitch that came out of the horn was a full octave lower than I expected! So when I hear people say they can buzz to d's and e's above high C, I can't help but wonder if they've fallen into the same "trap." Then again, I'm probably just jealous!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hairy james
Regular Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2002 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.F.Fan,

Don't be so worried about buzzing high. I consider myself to have some decent chops and when I'm fresh and that means that I haven't touched my horn either all night or for at least several hours I can buzz high C's for maybe a minute or two. On an exceptional day sometimes I can "touch" a high D or E flat, but thats about it for me buzzing wise.

And the second I start to play, well it's all over as far as buzzing high goes. After playing for a while my buzzing range will drop to an A or B flat. And if I take any time off the horn my buzzing range will drop even farther than that.


Hey from what I here Maynard can't buzz at all. So what are we worrying about? Just remember buzzing high takes way,way,way more strength that it does to play high on your horn. You don't have the rim to narrow down the buzzing area, and you don't have the resistance of the horn or mouthpiece to lean against. It's just you, your chops, and your air.

Chris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PC
Veteran Member


Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 398
Location: Trondheim, Norway

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MF Fan,

Just to second Chris, you have nothing to envy from me regarding buzzing, as what really counts is what's coming out of the horn. Yes, I really can buzz around high C (even walking into the trumpet), but I don't think any concert audience would be thrilled to hear me buzz. I have known a lot of trumpet, french horn, trombone, etc. players which would sound/do incredible things while warming up, forcing me to hide in the closet for my warm-up or not warm-up at all, only to sound less than mediocre in concert when real playing was called for (I hope that practising lip buzz won't lead me this way!).

I wholly agree that lip buzzing, while not compulsory for great trumpeting, does wonders for strengthening the lips and helps you better slot on the horn (for attacking higher notes dead on or for orchestra type playing. That said, being able to play any frequency with your lips also helps you bend notes and play around slots, which is more useful for a Jazz or natural trumpet player).

Cheers,
Pierre

[ This Message was edited by: BeboppinFool on 2002-10-08 11:32 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator


Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6437
Location: AVL|NC|USA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2002 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pierre,

Please refrain from putting URL's on this forum that direct people to totally non-Reinhardt techniques and methods. In case you're wondering, I listened to what you were trying to send us to, and was dismayed that you would think that's in line with the teachings of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt.

I hope you're not offended that I removed the URL from your last post. I think the Reinhardt students would understand why I felt that was necessary.

If you want to post a URL to send us to one of Reinhardt's lesson tapes that you've saved online as an mp3, then by all means, that will stay . . . but not what you presented.

My apologies if you are in any way offended by this decision/action.

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
spanky
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 535

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks like rich got the BIG stick out. ouch.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator


Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6437
Location: AVL|NC|USA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2002 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-10-08 15:10, spanky wrote:
looks like rich got the BIG stick out. ouch.

No, Spanky, Pierre got the gentle treatment. I'm saving that BIG stick for you! How's that Pivot Stabilizer and Track Routine coming, huh, huh, HUH???? Don't make me come down there and have to punish you, now!


Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PC
Veteran Member


Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 398
Location: Trondheim, Norway

PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2002 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hei Rich,

Not offended at all, don't worry! You're the Mod, so it is indeed your call on what is appropriate here and I agree it would be wrong to mislead people inquisitive about DSR by sending them elsewhere (the exact reason why I'm here, by the way!).

The URL was just to prove that folk do buzz high up. I know the stuff there (although great trumpet playing) is probably antithesis to DSR's routine, I was just enthusiastic in finding a high C buzzer on the net. What benefit you get from that is another story.

My whole series of contributions here was only to convey that I was excited to learn that lip placement-wise I seem to buzz in the direction advocated by DSR. I also had the impression that the main benefits I got from lip buzzing was strengthening of said lips, which again seems to be the reason Doc recommended doing it.

Incidentally, I had a little go at "pivoting" the right way (I was one of those who thought you had to wave your bell up and down and never saw the point of it), as in Wilk's trumpet student video and got a good B under dubba C yesterday. Also, slight push of jaw while ascending got me geat tone up there, so there might be something to the DSR way afterall!

Regards,
Pierre.

[ This Message was edited by: PC on 2002-10-09 02:20 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Donald S. Reinhardt All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group