Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject: Chin moving while tonguing
I have a new middle school student. Every time this kid articulates something on the trumpet his chin moves. I'm having a hard time figuring out what is going on. It doesn't sound very good at all. Thoughts?
I've never come across that, but it seems that the student is using their jaw in combination with their tongue? Maybe the student doesn't understand that using the tongue requires no movement from anything but the tongue.
Try having the student tongue without a trumpet or mouthpiece at first. Have competitions keeping a "cement face" while saying the letter "T" with lots of announciation. (sp?) Then have the student graduate to the mouthpiece, then with the horn.
Hope this helps. If you try it, let me know how it goes!
Matt _________________ Hartt School of Music '06
BM OrchestralTrumpet Performance
Drexel University '16
MA Music Therapy & Counseling
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 Posts: 343 Location: Long Island, NY
Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:26 am Post subject:
I have seen this before. Though I have not seen your student, the first thing to check-while he is articulating-are the corners. Chances are, they are not staying firm. As the previous post said, have him (in front of a mirror) form an embouchure without the mp and practice articulationg SLOWLY. Then add the mp. How much is the chin moving?
Peace........ _________________ James Ingenito
New York
www.jamesingenito.com
Actually, this is quite common. It has nothing to do with embouchure. It is simply a habit that can be corrected within a week or two.
Point it out to the student and have them place a small mirror on the music stand while practicing. If they try to stop it, they can. There is NO reason for it. It just happens unconsciously.
This exercise is also good.....
Have them tongue (single or double) as fast as possible (while looking in mirror). If they can tongue fairly fast, they will not be able to "chew" while doing it. They can then gradually slow down....speed up.....slow down.....etc. while keeping the chin perfectly still.
Joined: 16 Oct 2003 Posts: 476 Location: Blaine, ME
Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:06 pm Post subject:
I have seen this a lot with beginner players. In the cases for me they tend to be using their whole tongue when single tonguing as in trying to say "T" with the back or middle of the tongue. I show and teach them how to use the tip of their tongue and within a week or two as Mr. Hickman said it's cleared up. An easy fix!!
P.S. Try getting the student to keep a coffee stir straw between his/her lips while articulating on the airstream with the ideal tongue placement while watching in a mirror. Keeping the straw still will work the corners at the same time without having to play.
If you haven't tried this already try to cover the different learning modes (Kinesthetic, Visual, Aural are the biggest I believe) in the way you present solutions to this student's troubles.
Ff its still a problem after a couple weeks of straw practice, you might also check the student's frenulum (thingy underneath tongue connecting it to the floor of the mouth) to make sure it isn't too small. If it is too small or tawt then that might explain the excessive chin movement.
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:58 am Post subject:
Sorry, but I bet you're all wrong. Student is not tonguing at all- articulating with the lips, as in "poooo", not "tooo", or "tah, teee" or what ever syllable you have them think. (If you doubt this, try it yourself- poo-poo-poo-poo- etc.) Best way to be sure? Have them "tongue" a line of sixteenth notes on an easy pitch with the horn, I suggest G2, maybe F1, but something where we don't have to worry about fingers, only tone. 2 beats of sixteenths followed by a long tone, same pitch. (I know the student probably hasn't reached sixteenth notes yet in the book but if you demonstrate, he/she'll copy it.) If the tongue isn't working, you'll really see some jaw movement and it'll be almost impossible for the student to produce any tone until the long one. The student may try to compensate by going to "hoo", and you should be able to recognize that, too. In any event, if they aren't using the tongue it will be a jumble. To correct, best to have them start saying the articulation. I use "tu" because it centers the tongue in the mouth somewhat and the teeth have to be apart to say it. "Tah" is OK, too, but may produce a lower pitch than you want. Once you're certain the tongue action is working, then put them in front of a mirror, have them "blow" it and keep the bottom lip in the set- don't let them blow it out with the air or pop it to start the note. Biggest issue is that the student has already developed the bad habit and it will take real work by the student and patience by both of you to correct. If it isn't fixed, the kid will never get above D2 with any kind of tone- ever. A lot of band teachers switch these kids to baritone or tuba, but the non-articulation is still a problem, and while the student can function at a jr high band level, they'll likely never reach their potential.
Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 653 Location: Pittsburgh
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:19 am Post subject:
I agree with Craig. The student is not tongueing at all. I refer to this as chewing the notes. Go back to square one and explaine, demonstrate and work on easy single tongueing. It may be a difficult habit for the student to correct. Maybe the old "spit the grain of rice off the end of the tongue" exercise. (Although don't tongue through the lips) _________________ Bach Strad 37/25
Bach Strad LT 43 /25
Bach Strad C 229 25H CL,
Couesnon Flugelhorn 1970
Warburton WCC mouthpiece
Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia
AFM
Certainly, articulating with the lips will cause a jaw movement. However, that does not make everyone else WRONG.
People CAN tongue correctly and still have a habit of moving the jaw for no reason. Also, tonguing between the teeth MAY cause a slight jaw movement, but a person can still tongue that way without jaw motion.
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject:
I have had students who would move the jaw/chin when singing dah dah dah. I had them touch the chin again while singing. This points out to them that they don't need all that movement to say dah. _________________ Bill Bergren
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:05 am Post subject:
When saying "t" in speech, my tongue pretty much remains stationary, and my jaw moves quite a bit. That's how I learned to articulate on the trumpet, and it caused all kinds of problems, particularly with playing full length articulated notes (which happen all the time in loud passages in orchestra). I noticed it a few years ago (I've been playing for 20+ years), and once I understood what was going on, it was a relatively easy fix. I just watched myself in the mirror while playing articulated notes until I could do it without moving my jaw. It required learning a new motion, which was very strange at first, but got to be normal within a few weeks.
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:40 am Post subject:
I don't know that it's a good idea to give a sincere reply to a snarky post, but for what it's worth: I'm not sure the camera gets close enough to settle this, but while I saw a bit of chin flexing with Maurice André, I'm not sure that there was actual jaw movement while he was articulating, or at least, not very much.
What I'm describing is more like at 1:35 in this video, wherein you can see the jaw moving distinctly with articulated notes, and movement in the embouchure at the outer edge of the mouthpiece:
Obviously John Ware sounds amazing, and I wish I could have played like this (still do), but for me, it meant the aperture was changing in size and shape with every articulated note, and I had big gaps between notes. I'm not trying to say that no one should ever move their jaw while articulating - if they sound great, then there's nothing to fix, but it certainly was an impediment for me.
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:45 pm Post subject:
It is actually impossible to tell pr chisels what is going on. But, seeing as we are talking about a yong kid, the money is on poor air flow, and non existent kludge to get some sort of articulation is to ‘wuwah’ it closing off the mouth and lips.
I see it a Lott in primary school kids who have, let’s just say it, terrible teachers. Or no teacher.
Older players, who have learned to tongue, just keep the habit of moving the jaw, until somewhere in their advanced studies a good teacher points it out.
That’s my prediction, which makes many post correct... and Maurice’s jaw is definitely not moving. Oh can see this right from th start with the front on camera angle.
Cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes...
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 936 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:09 pm Post subject:
I have had to help students with that several times before. It usually goes away pretty quickly if they work on K tonguing and get used to single tonguing with K Tongue Modified single tonguing. Exercises such as Claude Gordon’s Daily Trumpet Routines book and similar material with models and K tonguing are essential. It also helps for them to hear and see themselves. I have recording video on my iPhone so they can see their chewing motion and how weird it looks and how I don’t do that and others don’t either. Maurice Andre doesn’t do the chewing thing and obviously is a a legend and one of my favorites.
But, students that do the chewing thing and don’t produce a clean T are doomed. The most basic things such as attack on a wind instrument or bow technique on a stringed instrument really determine much of where they can go as players going forward. It’s sometimes hard to get students to realize it though if they think they are a player just because they have played a difficult solo or made it into an honor band or some other accomplishment. We all know that perfecting basics is what separates great players from people that just play around at it.
For my beginner students I don’t let up on them until they can tongue simple things and slur with the correct coordination of wind power and tongue level to get away from the typical lip focus that so many people fall into.
If you record the student with a DAW (digital audio workstation) like Logic Pro X or ProTools or even GarageBand you can show them the sound waves and visually how a clean attack looks verses a mushy duah sort of chewing sound. That plus then hearing it usually opens them up to understand it needs to be fixed.
Have fun! That is one of my challenging things to take a student though besides other embouchure issues.
I had something roughly like a chewing articulation pop up in grad school. Saying “don’t do that” wasn’t helpful. In my case, it wasn’t chewing so much as my embouchure moving to a complete state of repose between every note. It took a lot of thought and analysis to even realize what was actually going on.
I couldn’t just make myself not do it since it was part of how I produced sound. I started with breath attacked notes on the lips, mouthpiece, and leadpipe taking care to not move when each note stopped. This can be a battle to do without introducing tension. I used the leadpipe a la bill Adam as well as Armando Ghitalla. I worked slowly and simply. Once I had it under control away from the horn I applied it to the trumpet. Once I had the breath attacks under control, I used the same process with regular articulations, then K tonguing, then double tonguing.
It took this round about process to short circuit my normal playing habits. I took the Jacobs principle of introducing weirdness to fix bad habits. There were simply too many hang ups on the horn. It took about a semester to get it under control. I practiced those drills for about two years and will occasionally dust them off for a few weeks to stabilize things.
I’m also a big fan of using air patterns to build good habits.
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:49 pm Post subject:
Jeff_Purtle wrote:
But, students that do the chewing thing and don’t produce a clean T are doomed. The most basic things such as attack on a wind instrument or bow technique on a stringed instrument really determine much of where they can go as players going forward. It’s sometimes hard to get students to realize it though if they think they are a player just because they have played a difficult solo or made it into an honor band or some other accomplishment. We all know that perfecting basics is what separates great players from people that just play around at it.
Jeff
This.
We have had senior students, sitting high level music subjects attempting to play Goedicke concert etudewhi,e unable to tongue AT ALL. (One does question the quality of teacher he had)
At his half yearly practical examination, he played and had the misfortune of two trumpet players giving him marks. Such as 2/20, mainly for coming to school that day.
We workshopped with him later on that day. Going from more articulate, to demonstrate double tongue? Demonstrate single tonguing? Single notes? It was then the water works started and he admitted he couldn’t tongue and his teacher had ‘mentioned’ this. Oh.
Needless to say, he didnt follow through to music post school...
In our area, it seems that articulation is not talked About until weeks after starting. I firmly believe it should be in the first lesson, as a means to divide up a single long note into a bunch of not s and then a melody. Seems to work! 😜
Cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes...
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