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TOL - who cares for an experiment?



 
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Larrios
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:23 am    Post subject: TOL - who cares for an experiment? Reply with quote

Hi guys,

Yesterday, I stumbled on something that seems to work for me and I would like to have some feedback from anyone that's willing to give it a go.

It's about a slight variation on the TOL theme. For my first attack, I point the tip of my tongue through the teeth and lips (!), upwards to the nose. Then tongue off the top lip like that. (For the initial attack only, to do this on following attacks makes a mess. The rest is TOL as usual.) What happens is that on its way back into the mouth, the tongue keeps my PTL rolled in much better. It creates, for me, a better airseal, sound and flexibility. In general a more rolled in setup. Range isn't really affected at this point, it just makes it easier to move from one end to the other. Movement is refined and flexibility enhanced. It also feels more secure as the tongue monitors the lipposition in this way.

I hope this is not too vague a description. Give it a go if you like, I'd appreciate any feedback. Thanks!

Ko
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Bert
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: TOL - who cares for an experiment? Reply with quote

Larrios wrote:

I hope this is not too vague a description. Give it a go if you like, I'd appreciate any feedback. Thanks!

Ko


I am afraid I don't get the point. You stick your tongue out of your mouth with the initial attack, is that what you are saying? What does your tongue tip hit? The outside of your top lip?

I'll try it tomorrow. Let you know.

Bert
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Larrios
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: TOL - who cares for an experiment? Reply with quote

Bert wrote:
I am afraid I don't get the point. You stick your tongue out of your mouth with the initial attack, is that what you are saying? What does your tongue tip hit? The outside of your top lip?


Yup, I stick it outside. The tongue tip hits just above the red of the top lip. It actually drags back in for the most part before making the attack, but this is how it is set up and the dragging in of the lips with the tongue makes it easier for me to keep that PTL in place. The tongue provides some feedback, it makes it easier to feel what the lips are doing. If I keep the tongue too far out for the attack, it doesn't work at all, so please fiddle around with it a bit.

Ko
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Bert
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:15 am    Post subject: Re: TOL - who cares for an experiment? Reply with quote

Ko,

I tried it and I see what you mean. For me this is too extreme. I never suffered from a PTL, and if I do it like you decribe my top lip gets rolled in too much. Besides that it feels as if my top lip gets pushed up a bit, and I don't want that to happen. For me it is very important to keep the top lip down as much as possible.

Of course it is useful to experiment with those things (don't get hung up by it, though, because it is in the tricks department). When I did it, I compared it to my own initial attack and one of the things that really meant a breakthrough, is that I was able to use my bottom lip much more. For me RO #3 and #4 and especially the movement that the bottom lip makes when going into the normal register again, is crucial.
When I make the first attack, my tongue feels and monitors the amount of roll in of the bottom lip. This gives me the security I need for every attack. I pushed your experiment a bit further and discovered that what you did with tongue and top lip, I can do it with tongue and bottom lip.

You know that I am experimenting with TCE, and exactly this is what gives you the right initial setting for the so called tongue anchor. Tongue sitting on the bottom lip more or less.

So, thanks for another useful thought. I think it can help people with PTL problems. If you don't have that maybe the other way might help, if you would want to do an experiment.

In fact, there is one student of mine, a ten year old boy, whom I started from scratch with BE. He plays a year now, and has big problems, alas. You can spot it from a mile that he suffers from a PTL. He is still unable to do a Lip Clamp Squeak, although his initial setup for RI seems to be OK, but he never could manage a rolled in tone. His lips collase into the cup as soon as the mouthpiece touches his rolled in lips. I think I am going to do this little experiment with him and let you know.

Bert
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Larrios
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bert,

Thanks for your thoughts. It's also an experiment for me. Now that you mention bottom lip, that one rolls in further as well when I do this and I feel it helps. This might be why the low register connects easier. The funny thing is when I try to do this without the tongue (as in dragging the RI down), I don't get a useable sound. With the tongue used this way, the lower notes sound more open. I am going to experiment for a while with RO 3 and 4 too. Maybe I need to roll the bottom lip in a bit more on the lower notes. We'll see where it goes, but things are moving, so I'm happy with that.

Ko
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Larrios
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aha! I just worked on RO#3 while rolling the bottom lip back in a bit further when going back to the normal register. When I did this, I felt that PTL pop back (rolled in) too. A bit similar to what it feels like with TOL as described above, but now guided by the bottom lip. Interestingly, clues are in the BE manual instructions for RO#3, but I think I just 'stumbled' when I actually felt what happened. Two clues in the same direction, I just have to go down this road and see what happens!

Ko
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Bruce Lee
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ko, and Bert,

Great thread! Like Bert, I do not have a PTL. However, I tried the "experiment"... and, I think that it is very useful, even if you don't have a PTL.

The "lip-clamp squeak" and TOL are two BE principles that many players struggle with in the beginning. While it may be too extreme for someone without PTL, the one thing that is ensured is that the opening between the teeth is adequate. That would apply to everyone, while it serves as a very positive "set-up" for someone with PTL. If we start the airflow in this "set-up position" the upper lip puffs out, setting up the "lip-clamp squeak". It also puts the tongue in a good position for initiating the "hissssssss", which is necessary for accomplishing the "lip-clamp squeak". As Ko states, it provides excellent feedback for monitoring of lip position.... a very key aspect for understanding the tongue's role in BE, just as described in the BE book.

Experimenting and taking things to the extreme provides valuable feedback during the learning process. What we are trying to find is the "balance" point at which each of us experiences success. Knowing what is too much, on one side or the other, helps reinforce what is within our comfort zone, or is "balanced".

Thanks for sharing this! Happy New Year to you both!

Best always,
Bruce
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Larrios
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I should give you here an update on this experiment. So far so good. I've been pleased with the results. It tricks me into an almost fully rolled in setup with potential. Articulation, sound quality, dynamics and flexibility indicate that I'm on the right track. Since this week I'm starting to overshoot notes. That's a clue too.

In my normal playing, I can already notice that this is more and more taking over. At this point what I'm still struggling with is that after any 'first attack', the longer I play, the more the PTL wants to roll back out. It seems to have a will of its own. I constantly have to reset, using TOL as described above. But the battle is on. This PTL should better hide, as I'm going to slay its will unforgivingly. BE is not a bad ally.

Ko
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steve0930
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Joined: 07 May 2018
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi KO, BE Explorers

Ko
Quote:
Yesterday, I stumbled on something that seems to work for me and I would like to have some feedback from anyone that's willing to give it a go.


I've had a bad last three days on the trumpet. I though I might check out the archives for some inspiration .. found this thread and it made an immediate impact. For me Bert's point on your exercise but rather bottom lip was decisive:

Bert
Quote:
For me RO #3 and #4 and especially the movement that the bottom lip makes when going into the normal register again, is crucial.
When I make the first attack, my tongue feels and monitors the amount of roll in of the bottom lip. This gives me the security I need for every attack. I pushed your experiment a bit further and discovered that what you did with tongue and top lip, I can do it with tongue and bottom lip.


Straight away I was able to do best RO to C above the staff ever. (I think Jeff has written that if you are RO to C you are "advanced level" YES !!!!!!)

Hope you are having / had a good weekend Steve

PS Sori you had to wait 15 years for this feedback Ko..my twin brother collects radio plays - one of my favourite is "The Loop" 45min tale about time travel. Let me know if you want a link to it.
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Larrios
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steve,

No problem, glad you're finding some inspiration in these old threads to keep you moving forward!

Ko
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