Intuitive understanding of chords

[mustbflat]

Is it possible to have an intuitive understanding of chords, without actually having the technical knowledge? In other words, does it seem reasonable that you can improvise simply by listening to what's going on and reacting?

This goes against the grain of knowing chord structures and then memorizing chord changes for various tunes. I know this is the preferred method for improvisation artists.

The reason I bring this up is that I've been working in imrpov work with an Aebersold recording but I still don't have a solid handle on chord structure (knowing what notes are in an E- for instance). I know, I'm RUNNING WITH SCISSORS, but I've found that I can pretty much play the notes that fit within the chord structures. Is this intuitive knowledge? Has this happened to others?

The other day I was playing along with "Watermelon Man" and I couldn't believe some of the stuff that was coming out of the horn. It sounded great (to me) and I was having a lot of fun. I know there are more complex melodies and chord changes out there, but at least in this form I seem to be getting it.

I'm not sure if I found a "short-cut" to learning improv, or if I should cut out the improv until I can play and understand all of the scales and chords.

Any thoughts?
_________________
Bob Hill
-----------------
"It has withstood the vicissitudes of the contingent world and moved in an odyssey into the realm of the metaphysical." - Dizzy Gillespie on A Night in Tunisia

[BeboppinFool]

[mustbflat]

[pfrank]

Yes, of course! Eventually you are supposed to "forget" the symbols and just play from your heart (or whereever music comes from). You call it "intuitive", but the pattern recognizing part of the brain is Very sophisticated. If you can sing or wistle a complicated improvisation without knowing the specific names of chords, why can't you do it on trumpet? The trumpet, unlike the voice (or wistle) is involved with very specific differences between notes, (the slots and fingerings) so knowing scales and chords is the easiest way to know where you are in improvisation on the horn, but people usta make music (and still do in some parts of the world) without the modern notation systems.

When those wonderful things were comming out of your horn, chances are you were accessing the part of your mind that knows everything without symbols. Catch that feeling again, and continue to work on scales and chord knowledge as a supplement, and you'll be on your way. Chances are, your "intuitive" musical knowledge is way beyond what your analyitical mind can comprehend, and that's good! The musical impulse always comes before the analysis!

[tryingtolivethelife]

I've always found that a proper balance of left brain and right brain thinking is needed to keep myself interested in anything musical. I think if you want to let your ear do the work, go for it but it will only get you so far. Louis Armstrong was the inovator of soloing and he could play ideas without anything getting in the way, but in a few keys. With louis it was all about saying whats inside of you. So play tunes as easy as you need to to get those ideas out. And as far as spelling chords, thats important and so are scales, but work on both in equal amounts to times you improvise "freely". But remember when you play you should be able to hear what your going to play before you play it. If it's just guess work then your not improvising. Try taking Impresions and singing your dorian scale, and the sing the 1 3 5 and 7. Then sing a basic idea, the idea in your head, and then figure it out. I find that exersize keeps me honest as a soloist and makes sure I'm not BSing through the changes. Best of luck, remember to keep pushing yourself a little farther each time.

Chuck

[Blumood]

Hello folks,

Along these lines I have this question....

Can some of you more experienced players please suggest a book(s) that will help what is essentially a "new" (read: comeback player that has switched to trumpet) player learn about reading chord changes/structure, etc?

At this point of my "illustrious" career I am more suited to beginning scale studies, but I would like to begin reading about chord reading/improv, etc. so that by the time I can fly on my own wings my feeble mind will have some sort of understanding of what to do.

As always, I appreciate your suggestions

Jeff

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 17:52 ]

[Strawdoggy]

I have to second Rich on this one.

First, I think it is GREAT that you getting it together with that Aebersold Volume. Start small and build on it. Intuition is great, but there will come a time (hopefully) when you get called to play with a group and sight-solo on the spot. It's hard to go with your intuition if you aren't secure reading changes down. Hey, I've been there. If you have to solo on Lush Life, or the bridge to Skylark, you will know what I'm talking about. If you are playing ii-V-I or Cycles, you can go with your ear and intuition, but is is also good to "know where you are" when you are playing. My suggestion is to work on both. When you get familiar with tunes you know really well and stop reading the changes, it is time to move on to something else for more growth. Of course, sometimes it's just plain fun to put on a play-along, put the music away, and enjoy yourself.

IMHO - Steve

[Fleebat]

Note: I am flabberghasted, in reviewing this post (my first), by the sheer length of it. Jeez. Please, all, accept my humble apologies for that, and trust that I do NOT think myself some kind of big deal or know-it-all. I do have long experience both as a working musician and in teaching improv theory, though, and I'm truly trying to help the original poster. Might want to take a bathroom break before you try to wade through this.

I would say it's impossible to improvise well (and in a way that moves people) WITHOUT at least some intuitive sense. That's your "ear" working, and no matter how much you learn about chords/scales/theory over your lifetime, you will sound like you're babbling on the horn without a strong ear component. You are doing a VERY good thing by cultivating this intuitive sense, but, IMHO, not the ONLY good thing for your future as an improviser.

After some 15-20 years making my living as a player (added lots of writing and photography in the last 5 or so) and a dozen years as a guitar teacher whose students were mostly gigging players, I find it terribly frustrating that so many students still have the "here's this random chord, now memorize this random scale to go with it" approach shoved down their throats. As a trumpet player in high school, then a tpt major in college, I desperately wanted to improvise well. All the other guys were into the high note thing, but I wanted to sound like Miles & Freddie. I attended the Stan Kenton Jazz Camp, and went to all kinds of clinics by the likes of (the late) Rich Matteson (sp?) and Dan Hearle. They'd say I had a good ear, then tell me to "work on my scales." So I'd go home and learn a couple more scales, the wilder the better, and when my spot came up in a tune, I'd... well... play SCALES. At least for a few bars, then I'd start relying completely on my ear. Neither approach, by itself, gave me a good result. i.e, I sounded little to nothing like Miles or Freddie. With all the possibilities in jazz tunes--even pop tunes--you'd better have an AMAZING ear if you want to really shine.

As players of melody instruments (one note at a time), we are at a tremendous disadvantage when it comes to hearing & visualizing harmonic structures and the manner in which improvised melodies wind through them, connect them, imply them, or provide contrast to them. I was amazed after taking up the guitar (and then studying it seriously) at how simple the basics of jazz harmony really are (memo to flamers: I said the BASICS of it). Chords are REALLY tough to get into your head and ears without a means of playing more than one note at a time. This means piano or guitar (okay, maybe there's someone out there with a really complicated, custom-built dulcimer or something who's got it nailed. But primarily we have piano or guitar available.) Most of the really good improvising horn players in history--and those of today--can at the very least peck out the notes of a chord on piano. Clifford played his BUTT off on piano. So did Dizzy. So does Arturo, and on and on. I strongly urge you to at least play around with a keyboard on a regular basis.

In teaching improvisational theory (this is a very skeletal description), I've had very good results from an approach that begins with an overview rather than an inch-thick book of exotic scales to be memorized. In a nutshell, I've taught that scales can be looked at as an alphabetical (abcdefgabcdefg etc.) LISTING of the notes which IMPLY harmonies. You wouldn't (I hope) just recite from a dictionary, word for word in order, and expect to reach anyone. They're also kind of like little piles of puzzle peices. And if you sit in front of a table full of puzzle pieces just sifting through them for hours and hours--even if you REALLY get to know those little piles--without finding how they connect, you don't get an idea of what the picture looks like. (Hmmm. That may not be the BEST analogy, but stick with me here.)

Many people start with ii/V/I progressions, and there's a good reason. These chords are moving in 4ths (ascending. C to F. If you think downward, it's a 5th). Much, MUCH of western harmonic progression (think Occidental, not George Jones) is based on moving in 4ths. And the real crux is, the chords in a ii/V/I, all the way up to the 13ths, are built ENTIRELY of notes from the parent scale (addendum to flamers; we're talking diatonic harmony here. Gotta start someplace)

Write out a C scale. Now build a MAJOR triad on every note of the C scale. Just stack 'em up, taking the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13h from the MAJOR SCALE OF EACH INDIVIDUAL BOTTOM NOTE. This is so you can see how they'll need to be altered to fit into the key of C. (BTW, do yourself a favor and de-mystify 13th chords. They are nothing more than 7-note scales played in 3rds, or arpeggio fashion. Cmaj13 is: C,E,G,B,D,F,A, or 1,3,5,7,9,11,13=1,3,5,7,2,4,6. The reason an A would be called the 13th is to locate it in the upper octave, meaning you wouldn't put it right next to the G--5th--in your chord voicing. In that case it would be the 6th. An easy way to remember what the 9, 11, 13 of some chord are is to "bump it 7." I say it that way so as not to confuse it with "plus," "add," and other terms that have primary meanings in chord building. Bumping it 7 means this: In C, the D is 2. Bump it 7. D is also 9. F is 4. Bump it 7. F is also 11. Anyway...

Now take all those major chords you built (we'll reduce to triads as this is turning into a book. Sorry for that.) You got C, E, G. That's your C chord. All three notes fit in the key of C. Then you have the D chord. D, F#, A. (Remember, we built MAJOR chords off of every note in a C major scale. Well, the F# here clearly doesn't fit into the key of C. We have to lower it to make it fit: D, F, A. When you lower the 3rd of a chord, it's called MINOR. So if we're playing in C, the D chord (2 chord) is MINOR. That's why a "2" is written "ii" instead of "II." You'll find, if you take the time, that the 2 chord in EVERY key is minor, and for exactly the same reason. Not only that, but when you extrapolate (don't ya love that word?), you get I major, ii minor, iii minor, IV major, V major, vi minor, vii diminished (lowered 3rd & 5th--m7b5 if you extend to a 7th chord). I use "lowered" instead of "flat" here because it's easy to get confused when you're just learning this and forget that when you "flat" a sharp note, you get natural. I've had students return after a week of trying to figure out why D, Fb, A doesn't sound right. Anyway again...

EVERY KEY WORKS THAT WAY. We're still talking diatonic harmony here. So, yes, you could think dorian for the Dm and mixolydian for the G7, but BOTH those scales are simply C major scales starting on the root of the chord you're playing. Der. And, typically, the flow, sweep, or "setting" of the bars occupied by the Dm7/G7/Cmaj7 is going to feel like a C tonality to even the layperson (civilian, audience member). Remember, that's why those chords are put there in that order in the first place. Certainly we would sound WAY pedestrian if we just played off of a C scale in a C tonality, then off of an F scale when the tonality shifted there. But we have to have a framework from which to build. (Page through your Real Book, BTW, or through an Abersold book, and you'll see LOTS of tunes that are, harmonically, nothing more than a string of tonalities, often outlined with ii/V/I progressions or slight variants in different major and minor keys--show me a m7b5, and nine times out of ten I'll show you the start of a ii/V/I in a minor key. Stack your diatonic triads, and it'll hit you like a bolt. Did me all those years ago, anyway. Turn to "A-Train," and look at it from arm's length. Lots of Charlie Parker, too, And "Cheerokee" is an absolute study of exactly this compositional technique, albeit taken to a high degree. There ya go.)

I'm tryin' to finish up here; really I am. But jazz improv is so typically presented in such a rote, random, memorize-three-billion-scales to play manner that I cannot resist an opportunity to try to help someone who is stuck with all that. So...

As a first step, I had my students play within the parent scale (also called a tonality) over a series of diatonic (all in the key) chords. You've heard these progressions all your life: C, Am, Dm, G... C, F, Dm, G... etc.). I have them just noodle on a C scale for a time. Some make the connection in a couple minutes, some in a couple weeks. Then I get them used to landing on the chord tones. When you go from C to the Dm, make your first note on the Dm a D. Etceteree, Etceterah. Next time through, I have them make their LAST NOTE OF THE C CHORD an E (3rd of C), and the first note of the Dm chord an F (3rd of Dm). Now we're actually connecting the chords. We go through a number of simple progressions that way. And (usually), they suddenly get an "aha!" look on their faces right about here. Then I have them learn and write out a simple melody that they've known/heard since childhood. Could be anything; I've used "There's No Place Like Home For The Holidays," as an example. And under the melody (with chord symbols above), I have them write out the NUMBERS of the notes AS THEY RELATE TO THE PRESENT CHORD. (Not the parent scale.) This confirms for them the validity of the landing-on-chord-tones, filling-in-with-scale-tones idea. And it shows them that good melodies are built in this manner. After all, every famous melody was an improvisation for the composer the first time around.

There's much, much more, of course. A student normally stays with me for about 3-4 years, depending on what they're trying to accomplish (this could say something good or bad about my teaching; maybe I SHOULD be able to get it all across in just a year! Ha! Take that, you wordy guy! I CERTAINLY DON'T THINK I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS OR THE ONLY METHOD THAT'S VIABLE. FLAME NOT, PLEASE. Not into the acrimony thing.)

Next steps in a nutshell: Triads don't really "need" to move, which is why 7ths are used. They (7ths) provide breadth and motion. They will either "spread" the feeling of rest (maj7ths, for example), or "pull" toward a resolution (dom7. BTW, a dominant 7th is so called because, in diatonic harmony, the ONLY chord that's a "seventh" chord--meaning R,3,5, b7 from its own major scale--is the one built on the 5th, or DOMINANT scale degree of the parent scale. Really do the stacking triads/fitting them into the parent key thing and this will make sense.) When moving in 4ths (you have to analyze your chord tones to see this, and you'll be amazed at the difference you'll hear from what you get using only your ear), like C, Am, Dm7, G7, check out the 7th chords and you'll find that the 3rds pull toward the 7ths (or up to the root) and the 7ths pull toward the 3rds. Like this: Dm7 to G7... F (3) in the Dm7 becomes the 7 of G. C (b7) in the Dm7 pulls to the B (3) in the G7. Then you go from G7 to Cmaj7 (we're doing a ii/V/I here). The B (3) in the G chord either becomes the 7 of Cmaj7, or moves up to the C (root). And the F in the G7 chord (7), pulls down to the E (3) in the C chord. These 3rds and 7ths work identically in every key, and are the nuts and bolts, or moving parts of the aural machine we call "tension and release." Again, you would have to own an incredible set of ears to pull this off without knowing anything about it. I HAVE YET TO FIND A CHORD PROGRESSION OR HARMONIC SITUATION THAT CANNOT BE EASILY UNDERSTOOD AS AN EXCEPTION OR VARIANT BY ANYONE WHO GETS THE DIATONIC HARMONY THING DOWN COLD! So. Transcribe a solo from someone who really sounds like they KNOW and FEEL the song they're playing over, and you'll likely find a good number of examples of all this. A rare few of them may have arrived at it only via their ears. A RARE few. And if your ears were THAT good, I believe you'd know about it (and we'd know your name & own your records) by the time you were in your early 20s. Play-along records are a valuable tool. But in the real world, you will face music you've never heard, never practiced, and can't take several stabs at. Trust me, charging onto a gig with confidence in your "good" ears, then sounding like a complete idiot when you run into a pattern those puppies can't pull you through leaves a sinking, ugly, painful feeling. The ear-vs-theory question, IMHO, is as mindless (please; no offense intended) as the reading-vs-playing-by-ear battle that has raged in the pop/rock/country genres for decades. There are actually slothlike creatures out there who believe that if you can read music it kills your "feel" or ability to impart soul to what you play. Lordy. You wanna be BAD, better get it ALL together.

That is, I think, the best argument for learning chord (scale) theory, and though I've probably made it sound frighteningly complicated by trying to cram it all into a single (long, possibly record-setting) post, it's really very simple to see & learn ON A CHORDAL, VISUAL INSTRUMENT. Get thee to a piano, and your trumpet playing will grow by leaps and bounds! I honestly hope this is helpful to some lonely soul out there. Deeply sorry to go on and on.

Rusty Russell
Nashville Editor, Guitar Player Magazine
Trumpet player guy, guitar player guy, photo guy, self-unemployed guy

[ This Message was edited by: Fleebat on 2002-10-04 05:08 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Fleebat on 2002-10-04 05:09 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Fleebat on 2002-10-04 05:52 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Fleebat on 2002-10-04 06:15 ]

[Fleebat]

Man... sorry (again), but I just can't let this go without clarification. This is only my second post, and those of you for whom this stuff is old info are probably ready to kick me out of here already. Here goes:

Regarding the 13th thing, and the 11th as well, for that matter; The reason we use/notate/refer to "13ths" instead of calling them 6ths is, as stated in the previous post, to place them in the upper octave when the 7th is present. What I mean by this is that (sticking to C still) we (rhythm section players who're playing chords) would hardly ever play an A and a Bb right next to each other in a C chord. Once, just ONCE in my experience I've run into an arranger who actually intended that, and it sounded like KAKA! (sp?) The 6th (a) is usually used in place of the 7th or 5th. When you have a 7th, and especially a b7th, in a chord, a knowledgeable rhythm player will put the A, if desired, in the next octave. Sounds great there, adds color, has its own flavor, etc. One real stumbling block for melody-instrument players (this happens all the time in big bands) is put there by arrangers. They'll analyze all the beautiful sax voicings they've put in or the trumpet clusters they've "invented," figure out what ALL those notes played as a chord would (theoretically) be called, and write THAT "formula" in the piano, guitar and bass charts. Savvy rhythm players almost always REDUCE such chords to their actual function. In reality, the band and its audience will hear the flavor of any chord (without chromatic altered tones) if the bass player is playing the root and the the guitar/piano player is outlining the chord via ONLY the 3rd and 7th. Listen closely to Freddie Green. Unfortunately, the poor second or 5th trumpet player also has what looks like an algebra theorum in front of him, and tries gamely to remember some really esoteric scale that will fit a G7b9b5demented with a raised whatever. MAJOR, BIGTIME KAKA! Sure, sometimes that IS the chord that's being played, but in the VAST majority of cases the band is actually playing a G7 with a bunch of groovy sax lines or trumpet clusters playing over it. Funtionally, it's a G7. It's nice to know that all those other tones are being stated, however briefly, in the sections. That gives me an idea of which direction to go if I want to stretch things a bit. BUT IT'S A DAMN G7! Next time you're faced with several whacked-out, altered-up chords in quick succession, take a step back and analyze the root progression; look like 4th movement to you? Look like a static stretch of the song with a line or lines moving through it? Really simplifies things, and then YOU decide what color tones to apply. Hey, you're the soloist. And you can only sus this out if you have your chord theory well in hand.

Here's one of my favorite examples. Can't count the times I've seen this load of hooey:

Cm... Em7b13/B... Em7b5/+5... Am9...

AAAAAUUUUUGGGGHHHH! That drove me NUTS the first time I saw it in the guitar chair. Vaughn Monroe Orchestra, I think. After it'd gone past, I realized (thanks, ear) that it was a Cm chord with a decending line played by one alto while another alto held the root. The bass chart had, as I recall, a C, then B, then A (?!), then G. How in the WORLD they arrived at that, I'll never know. The bass player & I raised eyebrows at each other when it went by, then reached for our pencils. I nearly broke my left-hand fingers trying to read all those chords. Lord knows what I'd have done if I'd been trying to play a trumpet solo over them. Brain hemorrage, maybe. Oops. I've posted long again. Sorry.

[ This Message was edited by: Fleebat on 2002-10-04 07:20 ]

[Larry Smithee]

[Fleebat]

Larry's right: It's the best thing out there for learning to get around on your horn & how to generate melodies within chord sounds.
Rusty Russell

[jazz_trpt]

[Fleebat]

I deserved that. (word count: 3)
Rusty Russell

[edtaylor]

Rusty,
Don't apologize, I have already converted your posts to a word perfect document. That way I can just keep adding to it as the "book" grows. Thanks, and my guitar playing son will thank you as well when I give him his copy!!!
_________________
Ed Taylor . . . a Messianic gentile

[Fleebat]

Thanks, Ed. I'm still a bit mystified by the ramble I spat out; you can see by the time of the post that I was up early/late, unable to sleep. It just turned into a time-warp deal. Still, I remember all too well how frustrating and defeating it was to be on the other side of the overview hump, and what a thrill it was when some of the chord-theory stuff started coming into focus. That's what I was trying to help Blumood into. The problem is that just a bit of that info doesn't always make sense. It's not a series of tricks & techniques that can be learned & used one at a time, but an overview, and really doesn't help until you have the four corners of the foundation laid out. I always scheduled my first lesson with theory, guitar, or trumpet students for 2 hours for just that reason. We'd lay out a bunch of stuff, so they would know where it was headed. If any of my drivel helped you or your son, I'm thrilled. In the past year & a half I've gone from not playing my horn at all anymore to doing some really fun & fairly demanding gigs, and things I read on this site helped, at least in terms of inspiration as I mounted the comeback. It'd be nice to think I could repay a bit of that.
Rusty Russell

[Strawdoggy]

Rusty,

Great posts, man. It is true about how some arrangers spell things out. I have recently got into writing for big band and try to boil things down to the bone (chord wise).

I think I said kind of the same thing you did in my reply to the original question. (Only mine was the Reader's Digest version.)

Hope you're finding plenty of gigs out there.

Steve

[ This Message was edited by: Strawdoggy on 2002-10-17 10:55 ]