Wynton M. vs. FREDDIE H./WOODY S.

m4 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 567

STRICTLY FROM A POSTION OF THE JAZZ TRUMPET:

Since most of you seem to be hell-bent on misinterpreting my statements on WM, and answering in a very simplistic way, I've decided to play by your rules.

Lets see how it goes.

WM IS 44; WOODY DIED AT 44; FREDDIE WAS STILL HIGHY ACTIVE AT 44

THE QUESTION:

CAN WE SAY THAT WYNTON'S LEVEL OF JAZZ PLAYING IS EQUIL TO THAT OF FREDDIE OR WOODY AT 44 YEARS OF AGE?

REMEMBER, THIS IS NOT WHO YOU LIKE, OR IF ONE OF THESE PLAYERS IS YOUR HERO, IT IS TRUELY A QUANTATATIVE COMPARATIVE QUESTION BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THESE THREE PLAYERS.

IF YOU ARE NOT EQUALLY WELL VERSED IN ALL THREE OF THESE PLAYERS OUTPUT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THEIR CAREERS TO THE PRESENT OR END, PLEASE DO NOT PARTICIPATE.

PLEASE USE EXAMPLES FROM ALBUMS TO INFOM YOUR ANSWERS.

IF YOU CAN NOT PARTICIPATE DUE TO LACK OF KNOWLEDGE, FINE, BUT GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER.

NO PERSONAL INSULTS AND LETS PLEASE STAY CIVIL. THE MODS WLL BE WATCHING THIS POST, ESPECIALLY AS I HAVE STARTED IT

BEST BEHAVIOR, OK? HERE WE GO.

REMEMBER, YOUR ANSWERS ARE INFORMED FROM THE QUESTION:

STRICTLY FROM A POSTION OF THE JAZZ TRUMPET: CAN WE SAY THAT WYNTON'S LEVEL OF JAZZ PLAYING IS EQUIL TO THAT OF FREDDIE OR WOODY AT 44 YEARS OF AGE?

_dcstep · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject:

Huh? Why so restrictive?

How 'bout Clifford Brown at 25, or Roy Hargrove at 32? The trumpet world is full of superior talents that had fully matured in their 20s and 30s. Argueably many were (are) superior to WM as jazz players. (Miles, Louis, Chet, etc., etc. all fit into such a comparison).

WM's contribution has been far reaching and covers much more waterfront than his jazz trumpet playing. He's got leadership qualities and classical talents that few others possess. To measure him just on his playing is unfair and confusing. He's in his place of high respect because of his whole package, not just his playing.

Looking at WM's jazz playing is like looking at Gerard Swartz and ignoring his conducting.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

trumpetmike · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject:

This is m4 - he doesn't want a sensible debate that might be of interest to those with knowledge of any other players, he just wants to demonstrate his disliking for Wynton, yet again.

m4 - we know you don't like the guy's playing - so what?

PH · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject:

I agree with Dave that Wynton is far more significant for things other than his playing. Whether those things are good or bad is also open to question.

Historians will likely view his greatest contributions to jazz to be his efforts in education, popularization of a previously more arcane art, and canonization. Canonization is one thing I have a hard time with. Anyway...

In these respects, the comparison with Schwarz...or Dave Brubeck for another example are apt and I think he compares favorably.

As far as contributions and a recorded ouevre of lasting significance, his contributions to age 44 pale in comparison to Woody or Freddie...or Miles or Lee for that matter.

Opinions are like noses. Everyone has one. That's mine.

m4 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 567

The topic is restrictive becuse its my thread. Futher, in another topic similiar to this from two days ago, i was personally attacked in the most humiliating of ways.

I disagree that a whole package needs to be viewed here. Fuuther, there has already been a post here that demonstrates this point.

Few people debate Chick Corea's or Keith Jarrett's classical playing and/or composing when evaluating their merits as jazz players. Why should WM be judged differently?

Like it or not, it's WM jazz playing that generates most of his popularity. Therefore, I feel it apt that he be judged within this context.

During Woody Shaw's lifetime, there were not shrines built to music education.l But Woody taught at the Eastman School, and the Jamey Arbersold camps. Few young players are probably not even aware of all of this information.

So yes, i beleieve that when WM puts himself out as a "jazz player" and makes money in the enterprise; as well as mesmerizing a whole generation of trumpet players, I beleive we can delimit the debate as i have framed it.

Dr. Michael Missiras aka m4

_dcstep · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject:

m4 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 567

Dave,

Interesting point about "owning" threads. In a larger sense, you are probably right. But at a meta level, which is certianly what an online site such as this might be consdidered, the use of "hijaking" gives rise to the notion of "owning."

You can't have it both ways. Phenomenological terminolgy rules at the end of the day here. This is not a trumpet think tank. its a helpful, sometimes pathetic palce where people of all walks of the horn are "equal."

As for G Swartz, i would have difficulty 1) comparing hin to Wynton as we are talking about trumpet playing, and conducting is a form of performace, at least in royalties with regard to hollywood soundtracks; and 2) There is no messionic complex that WM seems to hold, in contrast to GS, who is not seeking wide fame but simply being a musician's musician.

As for the happiness of my life. i have not a clue as to waht you are refering to...???

Dr. Michael Missiras aka m4

loweredsixth · Last edited by loweredsixth on Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:56 pm; edited 2 times in total

windandsong · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject:

It occurs to me that Marsalis and Hubbard have always had a preferable
"sound" to that of Shaw...in terms of sheer depth and tone colour. I have heard quite a few recordings of Woody Shaw and while I like his sheer spirit and harmonic complexity I do get a little sick sometimes of listening to him "clatter" along...his playing can be a little incessant.

Ring any bells guys or no?

PH · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject:

m4 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Posts: 567

loweredsixth · Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:00 pm Post subject:

Okay. I'll use the exact same responses to Freddie Hubbard and Woody Shaw as you did (I totally agree with you on those although I have not seen Woody Shaw live.)

My counter example will be Wynton Marsalis' album Sweet Release. In the first movement he clearly exemplifies his strong sense of musical taste and teachnical ability beyond his years. His tone is strong, with a lightness to his attack that suggest complete command of the instrument.

Also, I'll use Wynton Marsalis' live at the Village Vanguard box set. On the tune Rubber Bottom, Wynton plays at a very fast tempo with complete control. His lines are very interesting harmonically in that his choice of notes constantly keeps the listener guessing as to where he is heading. His choice of notes he accents keeps the bass lpayer swinging hard with no loss on tempo.

Also, I'll use Wynton's recording of Just Friends from that same live concert you say the clip of CHerokee from. His maturity is very evident here. He swings beautifully in all registers (many registers) and his choice of notes is very personal and original. This is beautiful playing, very relaxed, and in the true spirit of jazz.

How's that? I was not "challenged" by your post. I am just tired of you demanding people prove something to you when you were not (until just now) willing to do the same for yourself. I still charge that you are not familiar enough with Wynton's playing to have an educated opinion on his playing.
_________________
The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis

loweredsixth

scarface · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Feb 2004 Posts: 1806

somedaylikechet · Veteran Member Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 261

scarface · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Feb 2004 Posts: 1806

loweredsixth

loweredsixth

loweredsixth

scarface · Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Feb 2004 Posts: 1806