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mcamilleri Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 2076 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: The Kanstul-Besson Loyalist - New Site! |
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Hi All,
I humbly offer my experience and knowledge of the Kanstul Besson and French Besson trumpet range on a new webpage.
http://users.actrix.co.nz/mcamilleri/Besson/TheBessonLoyalist.htm
Find information about which Besson models are Kanstul made, what they are like, and what they usually sell for.
These instruments are all excellent instruments, and many are fantastic value on the used market. Want a pro level, recent model silver plated trumpet for under $250? Look here to find out which one to go for.
Cheers!
Michael _________________ Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist |
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WFUnix Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2003 Posts: 433
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Cool site - I have 2 Kanstul made Besson instruments that are excellent.
Brevete flugel: very similar to the Kanstul Custom Class 925 flugelhorn.
Meha 60 piccolo: again, similar to the Kanstul Custom Class.
I have also seen short bell Besson piccs that look like the old Benge piccolos, as well as a large bore flugel. |
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mcamilleri Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 2076 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks!
My knowledge of the Besson flugals and pics is basically non-existant. The Trumpet Gearhead at www.dallasmusic.org has some good info on Besson pics and flugals.
Michael _________________ Alpha Angles
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_Daff Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Michael. Have been wanting to learn about Bessons, and voila! Cool. |
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djm6701 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2003 Posts: 623 Location: Richmond Hill (Toronto) Ontario
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Great site. I have been for a long time interested in the Besson Meha because I grew up listening to the Boss Brass and that's what their lead player, Arnie Chycoski, played (with a ridiculously large-throated mouthpiece, too). _________________ Dave M.
Richmond Hill (Toronto) Ontario
Kanstul WB1600, 1952 L.A. Olds Recording, 1975 L.A. Benge 3x, 1960's Olds Flugel, Yamaha 631 Flugel
GR 65.6 Mouthpieces
a jazz.fm member |
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mcamilleri Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 2076 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Charles Hargett, Sales and Marketting manager of Kanstul, has kindly provided me with an article from The Music Trades magazine from May 1983 which describes the development and introduction of the Kanstul French Besson trumpets. Makes a very interesting read and proves once and for all that this was a serious and successful attempt to re-create the essence of the originals, and not merely a marketing exercise as some other recent 're-creations' are (not mentioning any names but U know who i Mean, rIght?).
Full article is here, and I'll add links to my page soon:
http://users.actrix.co.nz/mcamilleri/Besson/KanstulBesson.pdf
Thanks to all those that have responded privately with more information and questions, particularly about the International model. I'll try to track down some information to fill in these gaps and include it on the page.
And just to really hack you off a Kanstul French Besson Brevete, serial 5037 just sold under the radar on Ebay today for $377. At the last minute I wimped out, as I really don't need another trumpet and money is tight - no way I could explain the purchase of another trumpet to my wife at the moment!
These type of bargains are a frequent occurence in the Besson line at the moment.
Michael _________________ Alpha Angles
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PiCK Kanstul Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 704 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Nice work, Michael. |
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mcamilleri Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 2076 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Thsnks!
I have had some feedback from TH people and from Kanstul and have some more information added and a few corrections. _________________ Alpha Angles
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mcamilleri Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 2076 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Uploaded now!
Thanks to all those that supplied more information, especially Kanstul.
I think I have got as far I am ever likely to get on identifying the Kanstul Bessons (short of visiting Kanstul and looking at their Big Book of Serial Numbers - I'll be in California in August so who knows...)
The models I have identified as Kanstul made are very easy to identify, with the only exception being the International model.
Some Internationals are Kanstul made and some are made in the Besson plant in India (likely the more recent ones). See my page for suggestions as to how to tell them apart. All the Internationals are good instruments, just expect the Kanstul made ones to be better. Maybe once people start looking at theirs closely we can get a handle on serial numbers or design features that might distinguish them. Kanstul usually put "USA" or "Kanstul" or the Kanstul "K" logo on their Internationals, so this is the main thing to look for.
Even an Indian made Besson International is worth the $200 or so they are selling for on Ebay, and beats a lacquered BrassWind or Barrington trumpet hands down.
Michael _________________ Alpha Angles
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BengeBoy Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Aug 2002 Posts: 192 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Great site, Michael! Thanks for your hard work.
I've been confused about the use of the term "F. Besson" for a long time, so maybe this is the place to clear it up.
Gustave Besson founded the Besson company in Paris around 1837. He eventually opened a factory in London as well. After the death of Gustave and his wife, their daughter Marthe ran the company. After her marriage to Adolphe Fontaine, the name of the company changed to Fontaine-Besson, around 1880.
I believe the "F. Besson" engraving on many trumpets stands for "Fontaine-Besson", not "French Besson". Michael (or anyone) please confirm this if I'm right or correct me if I'm wrong.
The terms French Besson and English Besson are often used because instruments were manufactured in both countries. The fact the Kanstul has manufactured "French Besson" trumpets in the USA only adds to the confusion. But, I beleive that many people say "F. Besson" when they really mean "French Besson".
Any comments are welcome.
Tim _________________ Tim Murtaugh
Burbank Benge 3x |
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mcamilleri Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 2076 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: |
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I have also heard that F. Besson stands for "Fontaine". Don't know for sure.
I have avoided going into minute detail on the markings of the Bessons as I think it is too messy. I'm interested in identifying the Kanstul Bessons, not in identifying the origin and date of EVERY Besson.
I've contacted Kanstul and they are not keen on supplying serial numbers (see my page again for fresh information). Since only the International is of questionable origin there is no real need to track down serial numbers on the other Kanstul Besson models.
If people have serial number and date info I would like you to send it to me and I will try to compile some.
Michael _________________ Alpha Angles
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Kenton New Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Punxsutawney, PA
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Has the Besson Loyalist site gone offline? I can't seem to get it to load this morning. |
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gwood66 Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
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Kenton New Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Punxsutawney, PA
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:15 am Post subject: |
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That's interesting, I can't get it to come up here. |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Kenton wrote: | That's interesting, I can't get it to come up here. |
Same here...
Interesting thing: my teacher at IU loved a VERY OLD Besson that he had from long ago. What I got out of conversations when we talked about that horn was that it was damaged beyond repair (the bell), and he got a newer bell to replace it. The new bell was significantly heavier....I still have the bell and it is double the weight of the original. Changed the way the horn played completely, and he didn't care for it. He took the bell back off the horn, and I ended up with it.
The Bessons were always lighter horns, in my recollection closer to a lightweight Bach 43 in terms of playing characteristics. Somewhere in my memory, I recall an article where I read that Bach was trying to match the Besson instruments with his early horns and that the 43 bell was actually the standard (and not the 37) on early horns because he felt it was so similar to the trumpet of his quest, the Besson. From further reading, he ended up believing the 72* bell was the closest by the time it was done, but what amazes me (if I am recalling correctly) is that all of it was a quest to make trumpet as incredible as the Besson.
Benge, Schilke, and others have been said to (at least initially) be on the same or similar quest. Those trumpets did indeed create a significant influence on the trumpet and trumpet playing.
Again, this is mostly from memories and discussion from the late 1980s, so...
Happy New Year,
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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Kenton New Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Punxsutawney, PA
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Now it is back. That's a good thing. |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Here is a page written by Niles Eldredge, who is an authority on 19th and early 20th century cornets:
http://www.vintagecornets.com/html/historical_articles.htm
Lots of Bessons pictured there.
My experience in working on the trumpets is that they had very thin-gauge bells. This was right up until the 50's when the last ones were made in France.
One Meha I took apart to repair had .015" thin walls at the tail! Thing was light as a feather and played great. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:17 am Post subject: |
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BengeBoy wrote: | The terms French Besson and English Besson are often used because instruments were manufactured in both countries. The fact the Kanstul has manufactured "French Besson" trumpets in the USA only adds to the confusion. But, I beleive that many people say "F. Besson" when they really mean "French Besson".
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For clarity:
1838: AG Besson builds his first Perinet valve cornet in France
1858: AG Besson loses a lawsuit and relocates to England. His wife restarts the firm, continuing the same serial numbers
1867: (or before) The French firm introduces a new concept of a pitch change slide at the last bend of the lead pipe
1880: (or possibly very shortly before) The French firm introduces the first modern wrap valve trumpet, pretty much what people call a Brevete model (though that is not a model name)
1890: The French firm changes names to Fontaine-Besson as a result of a marriage in the family. For 4 years, some horns made in England are also marked "F.Besson".
1894: The English firm, Besson & Co., is sold out of the Besson family
1914: Austrian deserter Vincent Bach lands a job as assistant principle trumpet in Boston using a Besson cornet. He is promptly provided Gustav Heim’s spare 1914 LP New Holton Trumpet demonstrator.
1930: Elden Benge begins building modified Bessons and then his own horns in the same style, he continues evolving this school of design with the help of Schilke, Autrey and Busch through the end of his life.
1931: Francois Millereau, a former Besson employee, sells his trumpet making business to Henri Selmer.
1932: Fontaine-Besson is acquired by Strasser Margaux & Lemaire
1948: Besson & Co. (the English firm) is acquired by Boosey & Hawkes
1957: An insolvent SML sells Fontaine-Besson to Couesnon
1969: An arson fire reduces the Couesnon plant to a pile of broken block and twisted steel. All Besson records and tooling there are lost. (This is the end of direct production of F.Besson horns)
1980: Donald Benge teams with Zig Kanstul and Byron Autrey to develop Benge style (which were his take on French Besson style) trumpets for stencil under the Burbank name and also after 1981, the Kanstul name.
1981: Buffet is acquired by Boosey & Hawkes
1981/2: Kanstul Musical Instruments is incorporated. Sometime thereafter, Boosey & Hawkes approaches Kanstul to make F.Besson replicas (ignoring that the trademark belonged to the other firm, not Besson & Co.).
1986: Boosey & Hawkes is acquired by Carl Fischer
2001: Carl Fischer’s extensive conglomerate of instrument makers shut down names including B&H. Besson continues.
2003: The Music Group, a venture capital entity, restructures the Carl Fischer companies. Besson designs and tooling were deliberately destroyed and the name moved to a new line of instruments built in India and other locations.
2006: The Music Group becomes insolvent. The Meinl family and Triumph Adler, which already owned B^S and other post-collective East block firms, acquires most of the brands including Buffet and Besson. The resultant Buffet-Crampon company controlled those plus Courtois and York. Besson production returned to Europe at Markneukirchen shortly thereafter.
2019: The tooling and records of the Kanstul company convey the Benge/F.Besson Legacy to BAC Musical Instruments. Autrey’s personal Benge and Kanstul horns, design notes, tools, etc. also transfer from his estate to BAC.
2020: BAC acquires the Benge trademark and begins building the culmination of the work of Besson, Benge, Schilke, Autrey and Kanstul with regard to classic Besson design. Modern Besson designs by Buffet continue, but with no design linkage to any prior Besson instruments _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6159
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2660 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I had a look at your info; which seems to be rather lacking in meaningful detail. (Oops! Seems it’s a very old page and this thread is as well. Serves me for not looking!)
There were 3 bore sizes for thee F.Besson instruments from the earlier 1980's, and the size is coded by the bell stamping. Most of the parts and running gear used were found on Normal Kanstul instruments.
You really should add something bout the C trumpets - these seem to have been Zig's pride and joy. I played one for over 25 years, and still use it if the section is antsy about a 4 valve instrument in their midst... They are streets ahead of any other C Kanstul produced. To quote Ziggy - 'that's the one I got right'.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes...
Last edited by Andy Del on Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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