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MF Fan
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2002
Posts: 379
Location: The Great White North

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As one of the "offenders" of board policy due to off-subject posts, I'd like to offer several points of clarificiation:

1. I respect your right as moderator to manage posted material as you see fit.
2. I participate in this forum because I believe Doc was fundementally right in his approach

3. In my previous post regarding pedal tones, I wasn't advocating anything. I was sharing my current experience with fellow board members in hopes that someone would give me feedback based on their Reinhardt-centered experience. The fact that I posted to the Reinhardt forum was based on a strong belief that what Doc professed was fundementally correct, and that I may be off track.

I was trying to reconcile my current experience with Doc's teachings. How do I get from here to there?

Without the opportunity to share experiences outside of the Reinhardt philosophy, you're limiting your ability to convert the ignorant and/or misguided. You're preaching to the choir, (or insert your favorite analogy here). Your responses to misguided posters(me), is how this forum can add the greatest value, by bringing more players to Doc's teachings.

With all that said, I will self-edit future posts to ensure I avoid the dreaded banishment from the forum. I value the information I've received to date.

BTW, My last couple of practice sessions were devoid of pedals, and I've experimented with a "curled-in" lower lip position that isn't as extreme as I employed in the past. I'm going to give your suggestions a try.
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hairy james
Regular Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MF Fan,

You ought to know by now how we feel about pedal tones. As far as Reinhardt goes they are not only USELESS BUT HIGHLY DESTRUCTIVE!! So why bring them up at all and waste everybody's time? If this was a pro gun control forum, would you be asking if it was better to carry an automatic or a revolver?

Also, there are too many "Reinhardt Amateurs" on this forum giving out bad advice. I think that before you can give embouchure advice here you should have to state your "Reinhardt Credentials." I don't know why these people keep doing it, especially after Rich has reprimanded them several times. Maybe they just want to feel important, if thats the case then let them take their inaccurate information somewhere else, not here.

Now about your lower lip question; all you have to do is say the letter "M" or "MIKE" do you see how your lower lip reaches in ond over your lower teeth, and your top lip reaches down and slightly overlaps it at the vibrating points? Well that's pretty much the way it should be when you play.

I sincerely hope this helps, If you have any more Reinhardt questions please feel free to ask.

Wishing you good chops,
Chris

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-10-15 21:04 ]
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walter
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 428
Location: near Philadelphia

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2002 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Chris- I strongly agree with what I think that you're saying about trying to make sure that Doc's ideas don't get erroded over time. You may have followed the thread in which John Mohan pointed out how Herbert L. Clarkes writings got modified as subsequent editions were printed. Has this happened with Reinhardt's encyclopedia? I gathered that the original edition and the reprint were different.

I wasn't really interested in the pedal tone thread within this area until reading what was happening on this thread. Pedal tones and flutter-tonguing are 2 areas of trumpet playing that I'd rather avoid. Unfortunately, I've [blush] played these base tones during performance a few times: most recently in a Mozart concerto or symphony when I was playing 2nd trumpet. There was a pedal D written in the part. I promise not to do it again.

I'm also aware that I've written a few things in the Reinhardt area which, if they don't exactly go against Doc's teachings, perhaps indicate that I've sometimes strayed away from the fold. Once I mentioned wandering away from placing the mouthpiece on an embouchure of buzzing firmness ... something that I've returned to, thanks to this Forum. It took a few weeks for me to feel comfortable again with this idea, but I certainly like the results.

But just today, I brought up some modifications that I've made to the Spiderweb Routine. I've also mentioned in other threads that I've modified some of H.L. Clarke exercises. I've taken many of the Technical Studies and altered the meter to 6/8 time so that I can double- and triple- tongue them. In modifying both Reinhardt's work and Clarke's work, I've tried to do so for personal gain. No, not money; but to develop my own skills, pitiful as they may be.

Each time that I write about my modifications of someone else's work, I try to point out that what I'm doing is not representative of the true source. Often, after I've written of such modifications, sometimes even asking to hear other people's opinions and experiences, nobody responds. I don't know if I've offended someone or if nobody cares.

I also wonder about revisions that Doc may have made to his own teachings over the years. Were there any? Did he find better ways of doing something or teaching something? I think that he was too great a thinker and too honest a person not to change and advance if the need arose. I'd love to see a collection made and published of his instructions to various students. I certainly remember Doc saying that the Encyclopedia was less than what he'd like to see representing his work. Perhaps a collection of Reinhardt's apocrypha could teach us all something.

Lastly, I tried forming my lips as you advised in saying M. My lower lip doesn't move inwards at all when I say mmmmm or mud or mouthpiece. The upper lip doesn't do much either. They both just separate, unless I deliberately compress them or change them in some way to try to approximate anything resembling a buzz. Maybe it's a regional accent or something.

If I sound critical, it's only an indication of problems I see with ideas expressed ... not of the people expressing these ideas. I am truly greatful for the presence of the Reinhardt Forum.

walter
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hairy james
Regular Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walter ,

I can only speak for myself when I say it's always a pleasure to read your posts. As far as I'm concerned you have "Reinhardt Credentials", and I for one would be interested in any new ideas you have concerning Doc's work.

I sent you a private message on this forum today, did you get it? Let me know if you didn't.


Thanks, Chris
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BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator


Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6250
Location: AVL|NC|USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2002 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-10-15 14:56, MF Fan wrote:
Without the opportunity to share experiences outside of the Reinhardt philosophy, you're limiting your ability to convert the ignorant and/or misguided. You're preaching to the choir, (or insert your favorite analogy here). Your responses to misguided posters(me), is how this forum can add the greatest value, by bringing more players to Doc's teachings.

In a case like yours, about half of what you wrote would've been acceptable. Unfortunately, somebody took the other half and quoted it and ran with it as fact, when it definitely was in contradiction to what Doc taught. Then, with that part reiterated, the whole topic was completely steered off-course . . . and letting the misleading post(s) stand was absolutely not the kind of "guidance" we want the uninitiated brass player to read upon entering the Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt forum.

In the Forum Index it says: "Donald S. ReinhardtFind out about the teachings of 'Doc' Reinhardt." It did not say "Find out about everything that contradicts with the teachings of Doc Reinhardt."

As Chris said, we're trying to keep this 100% pure Reinhardt information . . . if we quote out of a book or lesson sheet by Doc, that's about as pure as it can get. When we start theorizing and postulating, the message gets watered down. Occasionally we try to enlarge and expound on what he was saying in an effort to make things clearer, and when done sincerely I see no problem with that.

But any Reinhardt student can immediately spot a whole lot of non-Reinhardt information, and we're the ones who are keeping an eye on this forum to keep the integrity of Reinhardt's teaching as intact as we possibly can in a forum such as this.

Thanks for understanding our intentions here.

Rich
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DSR
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Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 265
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2002 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This calls for another AMEN!
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walter
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 428
Location: near Philadelphia

PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2002 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DSR- If we have an AMEN, does that make Doc OUR FATHER, WHO ART IN HEAVEN? Doc never seemed that above the rest of us to me. In fact, I always smelled like hell when leaving his cigar-smoke-filled studio. I think that my parents thought that I was puffing away behind their backs!

cough, cough, cough ....

walter
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DSR
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Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 265
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walter,

I just liked Rich's post.

-B
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