Closed/Opened

_bugleboy · Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2001 8:04 am Post subject:

To all,

I am wondering what everyone means when they use the terminology open and closed embouchure/setting. I also am curious if the terms "open" and "closed" are actually used in print by various teachers such as Callet, Gordon, Jacobs, Maggio, Adam, Stamp, Rheinhart, etc. Any one who can offer this information, please do. To my knowledge, Caruso never used the terms open/closed to describe the trumpet players embouchure. He was adamant that the lips must be touching in order to vibrate. He also believed that the best way to get the sound started (and get the lips acclimated) was to have the lips touching when the air is first blown through them. This could be accomplished by pretending to spit a thread from your lips. He would say that you can't spit with your mouth open.

Some players seem to be comfortable with their mouths open right up to the instant of releasing the air. I have experimented with this "setting" and find that it works fine. Is this what some people mean when they say they are playing with an open setting? After the air starts moving through vibrating lips, however, that opened mouth position ceases to exist and the lips must be touching, otherwise no vibration is possible. (If you keep the lips apart while blowing the air then no sound occurs, but as more air is blown through the open lips they may start to vibrate at some point. This would be the point that the volume level of the note is such that the lips can be made to vibrate. Louder notes cause the perceived aperture of the lips to be larger than softer notes. The distance that the lips vibrate is greater for louder notes.) If the lips were to be filmed (and I believe this experiment has been done on separate occassions in the early 60s and late 80s) it would show them going through a vibration cycle that would include a point in which they are touching.

The point of all this is to try and establish some meaning to the terms "open" and "closed." If, in fact, ALL embouchures must have lips that are touching in order to produce sound, then all embouchure settings are closed. End of conversation! We don't need to keep saying that an embouchure is opened or closed. BUT, IF THE LIPS CAN VIBRATE WITHOUT TOUCHING, THEN SOMEONE NEEDS TO OFFER REASONS, PROOF, A BASIS FOR MAKING SUCH AN ASSERTION. Starting with the mouth opened but then closing the lips at the instant the air passes through is not an open setting; it is a CLOSED setting. The only thing that counts here, as I see this issue, is the position of the chops (lips) at the time of actual performance. If others disagree, please do so.

I've heard top players state that they get their big sound because they play with such an open setting. I say, "Nah" to that. They get their big sound because they have found a balance in their chops that is near effortless in its production of sound. All the muscles involved in sound production have been synchronized and therefore move freely, without any tension or tiring. Muscles that have achieved this level of balance have the greatest freedom to sound and not surprisingly create the biggest, clearest tone. But when that sound is produced, the lips are touching and NOT opened.

BUT, if the lips can vibrate WITHOUT touching then let's have someone come forward and offer some kind proof or basis for making such a claim. If this evidence cannot be presented, then I say lets stop confusing the issue of embouchure by talking about "opened" and "closed" setting. If it is physically impossible to actually play with an open setting, why is it always being mentioned as if something analytic is being brought to the table??

Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2001-12-24 09:58 ]

histrumpet · Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2001 8:36 am Post subject:

Charles,
Until I started Super Chops, I assumed that I was using a closed lip setting. What I call an open embochure is one that requires a certain degree of mouthpiece pressure to keep the lips touching while playing. The embochure I was using before was fine until I was required to play in the upper register. Higher notes required more mp pressure and resulted in less endurance. To play notes in the staff minimal mp pressure was needed, so little in fact that I didn't realize I was using mp pressure. This is just my concept of an open embochure, there are other things that go along with this like dropping the jaw, lips stretched, etc. I don't want to open that can of worms just yet.

Bruce

Guest · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2001 6:03 am Post subject:

I'm guilty of using the term and have to admit, I don't know what I'm talking about. (ouch, are trumpet players allowed to admit such things?)...

I used the term because I can feel myself preparing the aperature setting and adjusting the tension of the lips as if I were opening my mouth (possibly by pulling down my jaw?) as I'm about to play. I thought a closed setting might be pressing the lips/jaw more firmly together.

Doing the process without my mouthpiece, it is obvious that my lips are still touching until the air column separates them...

Unfortunately, I don't really know what my embouchure looks like, hence my use of such unscientific terms... Hope this forum can clarify the issue (terminology, not my embouchure).

David

trumpetteacher1 · Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2001 10:37 am Post subject:

Charly,

You always get people thinking by asking about things that seem obvious, but turn out to be anything but.

My take on "open" or "closed" is, the distances we are talking about are very small, and not easily quantifyable by actual measurement, but rather by feel and shape.

Rolling in the lips tends to create a firmer, more "closed" feel. Prior to rolling in the lips, the student may be able to easily start on a 2nd line G by using a breath attach. After rolling in, the same breath attack may yield a G above the staff, which for me is proof beyond all doubt that lip position is of primary importance in upper register development.

Of course, the ultimate shape of the lips when vibrating in a more "closed" position is more complex than can be described by a specific roll-in or roll-out action. So, I can't tell you how much closer together they are, or even exactly what I am doing. Only, that it feels more closed, more balanced, and needs less mouthpiece pressure to produce a sound.

It may well be that consistantly holding the "lip shape" even a millimeter closer together may have a dramatic impact on your playing. For me, getting the "feel" of that position makes all the difference.

I realize I did not address the question, do the lips touch when buzzing? Frankly, I don't think about it. The "buzz" feels like a vibrating column of air to me.
_________________
Jeff
www.trumpetteacher.net

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2001 8:28 pm Post subject:

Jeff,

Actually my post is not primarily about buzzing. It is to try and establish whether or not the terms 'open' and 'closed' have any objective value in a discussion about embouchure. I think the terms tend to be used subjectively at times by trumpet players and therefore wouldn't have a lot of merit in any kind of analytic discussion, since they would mean different things to different people.

I see 'closed' as meaning that the lips are touching. I also see that the condition of lips that are touching (or closed) can't be more touching or more closed than the point when they first come into touch position. It would be something to note, if the lips were being pushed against each other by additional forces, but I don't see the lips as being more closed because of those forces. When they're touching I see them as being totally closed. Something like a door that is closed. You can push harder on it to keep it closed (perhaps to resist forces on the other side trying to open it) but it won't be MORE closed by virtue of the efforts being made to keep it closed. It will be just as closed as if no forces were being applied on either side. Closed is closed when it comes to doors. Is the same true of the embouchure? I don't know.

I get a drift from you that IF forces in the embouchure act to push the lips against themselves more and more than THAT, to you, means that the lips are more closed than the previous moment when lighter forces were keeping them in contact.

I also understand the term 'open' to mean that, no matter how small the distance, the lips are not touching. So if the lips are separated they are 'opened' and as they get closer together they continue to remain in an open position until that moment that they touch. Then they become closed.

So, I'm hoping that this thread will establish whether 'open' and 'closed' are meaningful terms when used to describe the embouchure; or that they are terms used arbitrarily by trumpet players to describe how something feels.

Regards,

Charly

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2001-12-25 23:31 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2001 10:39 pm Post subject:

Dave,

Thanks for posting to this thread. As far as I'm concerned there is no wrong response to what I have written. I'm trying to find out what people mean when they use the terms 'open' and 'closed.'

But I'm not able to see where you have described what you mean when using the terms. Did I miss it?

CR

_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2001 9:18 am Post subject:

Dave,

I disagree about the elephant analogy as being relevant in this case. I also have a great deal of confidance in the English language being able to describe most things (sensations excluded of course). If you have the motivation to continue, perhaps you could state a few examples how you would use the terms 'open' and 'closed' when referring to trumpet playing.

Regards,

CR

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2001-12-26 12:20 ]

_Don Herman · Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2001 8:43 pm Post subject:

FWIW,

Open = with mpc in place, ready to play, I can blow air through a hole (aperture) formed in my lips and only air witll emerge -- no sound (other than the airflow). This is without trying to actually play a note. If I play a note, I automatically close my lips as I start the note. Before, they are "open".

Closed = when ready to play the lips are already to gether. If I blow, I will not get just air; I will get nothing because the lips are closed, or I will get a buzz (sound, note).

See ya' - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

Lex Grantham · Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 7:37 am Post subject:

You could be like Harry Glantz...a trumpet player in the New York Philharmonic many years ago.

When asked how he played so well, he said, "I just screw up my lips and blow".

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham

trumpetteacher1 · Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 11:02 am Post subject:

Charly,

An embouchure is more complex than any specific description of that embouchure. When S.I. Hiakowa said, "The map is not the territory," he wasn't just whistlin' Dixie.

For example, the term "closed." Now, closed, to me, means not open, as in sealed, shut, and so on. And yet, if that were the state of our lip position, then no air could escape. So, when we say "closed," we actually mean partially open - that the "feeling" is more closed (or more open).

This "subjective" terminology is, in my way of thinking, a better description of what is actually going on. It's why I use phrases in my book like "lips moving more or less in the right direction." Statements like that are made on purpose!

All knowledge comes from subjective experience, which is a line straight out of the philosophy of science. It only becomes called "objective" when a lot of people agree. And sometimes those agreements have nothing to do with ultimate reality, as they may be heavily colored by the filters of belief. (but that's another story).

Oh, and a comment to Lex Grantham - funny story!
_________________
Jeff
www.trumpetteacher.net

_Don Herman · Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 1:18 pm Post subject:

tom turner · Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 2:25 pm Post subject:

Hey Don and Lex,

I HAVE a Conn "Harry Glantz" model mouthpiece that came with a nice silver '39 Conn Victor I bought earlier this year. It was the issued mouthpiece for this horn in '39.

Frankly, if I tried to do Superchops on it, I'd have to screw my lip on too . . . definately not a shape that's SC friendly!

The HORN however, slots like a dream all the way to triple C and plays like a dream too in every way, with its .480 bore!!! Unfortunately, this cornet is

1. not as rich and mellow sounding as my "mellow yellow" (sorry Don) Wild Thing TRUMPET,
2. nor does it project like the WT,
3. nor does it play nearly as awesome as the WT . . . so I'm not using it in the Dixieland group I'm with that I bought the horn to perform with!!!

Gosh, I can't wait to save enough to get one of Flip's new "American Standard" Wild Thing cornets (in gold of course)!

Don't know nothin' about that other subject concerning feeling elephant pfarts, although I guess one could if they stood close enough to experience the sensation--not my cup of tea.

Later dudes!

Tom Turner

[ This Message was edited by: tom turner on 2001-12-27 17:33 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:13 am Post subject:

Every good topic deserves to be pulled out and dusted off once in awhile, especially when it doesn't get resolved the first time. My summarizations of those who participated in this open/closed thread are as follows: (to the posters; please make corrections if I have misrepresented anyone’s post)

************

histrumpet

An embouchure is open if it is necessary to use more than minimal mouthpiece pressure to play high notes.

***********************

NCB

Didn’t Know

**********************

trumpetteacher1

It’s a feel thing

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dbacon

Subject cannot be expressed by words.
(updated per more recent post below)
His position would be more correctly stated as being one that is subjective to the player and consequently makes precise word definitions difficult.

*********************

Don Herman

Open means the lips are apart.
Closed means the lips are touching

***********************

Lex Grantham and Tom Turner did not address the subject.

***********************

Naturally I have tried to reduce everyone's post to it's essence, but it should be clear that there is anything but a consensus among these five posters. Therefore ...........

I think we either need to define the terms or stop using using them in any analytic discussion of the embouchure.

CR

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-02-26 19:25 ]

histrumpet · Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:25 am Post subject:

Charles,
After reviewing my post I am inclined to stop using the open/closed terminology and start identifiying the Superchops Embouchure (notice the spelling) I am using as a center compression embouchure. Even as I write this I am wondering if this is an accurate description. Whatever........

bj · Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2002 10:23 am Post subject:

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2002 10:31 am Post subject:

Dave,

Would it be, therefore, correct if I characterize your position as being one that is subjective to the player. That is, different players may use the same terms differently. If George Graham says that he uses an open setting, someone else, who actually plays the same way, may describe it differently and with different words.

The player who is using the term 'open' or 'closed' should be able to offer some kind of a definition as to what they mean when using that term, even if the definition is subjective or specific to a particular area of knowledge. At least we then know what that person means when he uses that term. Someone else has to offer their definition and then we know what they mean when they use the term. If we can't find universally accepted characteristics associated with these terms, then they become meaningless and would have no more place in a discussion then a term like 'cool.' I like the word 'cool' but it doesn't offer a huge amount of analytic observation when used to describe something. What is cool to one may not be cool to another. Not a good analytic word. So if 'open' is used the same way, it doesn't end up having any more merit than 'cool' in an analysis.

Don Herman and I both said 'open' means the lips are apart. 'Closed' means they are touching. Are these univeraslly accepted traits of the terms open and closed. I don't know. Maybe others mean more than this, but do they at least mean this? Probably not, since there are those who are suggesting degrees of open and closed. I think of open and closed, in this case, as being all or nothing at all. Something like entering a room if the seal on a jar containing a deadly virus, in that room, is slightly open? A little bit open is the same as completely open. And closed, no matter how hard you press the lips together, is still completely closed.

Regards,

Charly

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2002 10:35 am Post subject:

bj,

I agree with that. But we still need to find out what the heck he means by 'open' so that we can all give it a shot.

Actually I'm pretty sure I know what he means.

CR

_Don Herman · Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2002 12:15 pm Post subject:

Before I play, with mpc/horn in position to GO!, I'd say

open = I can blow air through unimpeded (e.g., there's a little hole to blow through)

closed = lips stop the air (no hole), 'til I blow 'em open

After starting, I am of the opinion that the lips touch to make sound, though how much is dependent upon many things. As Charly said, I think he and I are in agreement. Perhaps this (i.e., two trumpet players in agreement) should be noted for historical purposes.

_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

HOW OPEN IS YOUR OPEN?...

HOW CLOSED IS YOUR CLOSED?

HOW OPEN IS BUGLEBOY'S COMPARED TO YOURS?....

IS D.BACONS VERSION OF OPEN....REALLY YOUR CLOSED?

WE DON'T KNOW...

TRY YOUR APERTURE ON AN APERTURE TEST YOU CAN KEEP USING TO ASSESS WHERE YOU ARE FOR YOU!!!

SEMANTICS---GREAT FUN!!!

Roddy o-iii<O Aperture Test Page

http://www.r-o-d-d-y-t-r-u-m-p-e-t.cc/aperture.html

_________________
Roddy o-iii<O website
http://www.R-o-d-d-y-T-r-u-m-p-e-t.cC

[ This Message was edited by: Roddyo-iii

fzr Phil · Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2002 1:45 pm Post subject:

Hi all,
I didn't see this discussion back up when i replied to Roddy's post on the SC forum in the 'bobby Shew' thread. i think it is relevant to this thread also!
quote...
Hello Roddy,
I think your post(inc wesite link) has hit a few nails on their heads.
but, when we are refering to 'closed', we want our lips to be closed all the time that we are not blowing thru them. i think the interpertation of aperture as applied to how much air is allowed thru the lips is fine. if more air is passing the lips then the 'aperture' must be bigger. as SC'ers our goal is to play with a bigger aperture ( which is why when the sc is working well the air can just dissapear), and we help this by starting from zero i.e. closed lips. if you are blowing an air stream to ignite the buzz (say, 4mm2) then the total available 'aperture' ( vibrating lips) is the area of the mp - 4mm2 . (crude example!), the 'aperture' in SC is more of a slit the width of the mp, as opposed to a bigger or smaller hole.
at first with sc, the 'aperture' is big and difficult to control, the more advanced you become then the better/ easier it is to close the aperture down for efficient playing and breath control.

my efforts were pretty dismal at the 'aperture test' about 8 bars. The way HCl uses his air/lungs is a bit different to how i (don't

)use mine. he actually fills his up!

Please step in guys! and report how many bars.
.................

I hope you find this perspective helpful to the cause.
_________________
Phil Martin
Callet Sima Trumpet - GR NB63*** / dw3
Besson Sovereign tenor horn DW 3
Yamaha Maestro Cornet RW3
Yamaha pro 631 Flugel dw3fL
Yamaha YCR6610T Soprano
Elkhart pocket trumpet
www.thundersleybrassband.co.uk