Couesnon Flugelhorn

777 · Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:41 am Post subject:

Yeah, Blaine.

Our horns our identical then, & very close in ser. # as well.

(Really neat cars, btw)

Brad
_________________
Bought at a price.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bb L.A. Benge 3
Bb Bach ML
Couesnon flugel
American Standard cornet

jpdtpt · Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject:

Hi All: Last October I emailed Couesnon about my flugle, and this is what I got back:

Dear John

Thank you for your mail.

We regret to inform you that we do not have any archive because of big
fires wich have destroyed a large part of the company in 1979 and 1999.

Good receipt.

Glace Sophie
PGM Couesnon.
contact@pgm-couesnon.com
pgm-couesnon.com

Mine is a Triebert Moderne (by Couesnon)
B on 2nd valve
140 on 2nd valve
bought it used for $175 in 1982
#41074

It's now in a scratched raw brass finish, which I did myself, and I had a trigger put on the third valve. Plays great.

John

trombapaul2 · Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject:

Mine was (stolen in 2002) a Monopole Star with serial #41414 and it was
bought new in 1978 at Wurlitzer Music in Boston. However...it had a large
blemish in the finish on the heel of the bell and consequently, because it
wasn't "pretty", didn't sell until I bought it. I have no idea how long it sat at
the store waiting for me to come along.

Paul

P.S. it was lacquer and came with a 3rd valve trigger.
_________________
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"What the hell does sound have to do with music?" (Charles Ives)

somedaylikechet · Veteran Member Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 261

tom turner · Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:02 am Post subject:

Hi,

Mine has identical bell engravings as the one in the provided photo.

Yes, there's an N also on the side of the valve casings, almost positively to designate at the factory that this valve body is for their "N" bore horns . . . just like American makers use M, ML, and L for. Ya don't want some worker to use the wrong size valve body on a horn. It would "work" but there'd be problems. N would be for Narrow bore, I assume . . . or for whatever French word is used for a small or narrow bore valve body.

As far as stray numbering on leadpipes and such, mine has a Bb on it and also a #18. The #18 could be a manufacturing run number, or designate which type of receiver was used on the leadpipe. I don't place much significance in that number.

Couesnons are what they are . . . a relatively cheap fluglehorn with a classic "wrap" that produces what is considered to be the "correct" way a fluglehorn should sound! This wrap was initially used by both Couesnon and F. Besson . . . and is now used on most fluglehorn models made in the world. However, most newer horns fail to replicate the sound of the Couesnons and the rarer original F. Besson flugles.

Of the two makes, the Couesnon was the cheaper horn and Couesnon's mark in the instrument making community was made around 1900 . . . when they pounded out more export and stencil horns than anyone else in the world. At the same time, the F. Besson company was struggling trying to make top level horns . . . and failing to be profitable. The two World Wars were not kind to either company . . . and their designs were copied and the quality refined (if not the sound) by companies in other countries.

Frankly, we have a lot to be thankful for to the French for the wonderful, innovative breakthroughs they made in horn design . . . especially the F. Besson company (along with Couesnon's cheaper clones). Virtually all modern trumpets copy the wrap of the 1900 era F. Besson trumpet . . . and virtually all of the modern fluglehorns use the wrap of the 1900 era F. Besson fluglehorn.

Not bad at all for defining what the emerging modern cornet, trumpet and fluglehorn should sound like . . . considering how the rest of the manufacturing world left France in the dust generations ago.

Tom

improver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455

I just walked into my into a music store i frequent in the Phoenix area and walked right into a vintage Couesnon 56xxx Rue Laffayette Paris that had necer been played on their closeout table.what is weird the last time i went there i walked into a Conn#38 that was never played.needless to say im starting to like this music store.my mothers brother worked on the Couesnon horns in te early to mid 1900s.he once told me the there were 3 or four different letters on the valves A B N D.B meant bright,N nice or medium and D dark.I dont know what the A meant.

junkyt · Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject: spit valve

Good information! We're slowly but surely filling in the gaps.

I have what I think is a 70's 2155 model, but with a twist. The main spit valve, rather than point up toward the bell, is on the bottom of the pipe, pointing back toward the mouthpiece.

Anyone come across one of these before?
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markp · Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject:

Improver,
Did you buy that Couesnon, or is it still there? If so, PLEASE send me a private message with the name of the store.

Voltrane · Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:36 am Post subject:

Hello,
I am french and live in Paris. I own a Couesnon Monopole Paris. It is a used horn I bought in 1981 here in Paris.
No serial number, 140 written on the left side of second valve, N written on the right side of second valve,16 on the leadpipe. Nothing else.
For your information, Monopole means Monopoly.
N could be "nice" or "narrow" but I doubt about this because it really does not means anything in french. I also doubt that the Couesnon company thought at this time "world global market" thus writing in English!
In french, Large bore would be "Grosse Perce" ("perce" means bore, "grosse" means large), Medium bore would be "Moyenne Perce", Small Bore would be "Petite Perce". Bright would be Brillant (could be ok for B) but Dark would be "Sombre". I cannot see any meaning to A, N or other letters. The Improver explanation seems a little strange to me.
Couesnon is no longer in Paris, rue Lafayette (Lafayette street) but in Chateau-Thierry, a small town 100 km east of Paris. Everything was destroyed by a fire some years ago and, as far as, I know the current company has quite nothing to do with the former one.

Regards
Marc

777 · Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject:

Voltrane,
Welcome to this discussion. You can be very valuable here.

BTW, I'm of French descent, (last name is Turgeon), have a Couesnon & even a Chien Grand des Pyrenees. Wouldn't mind getting a Dogue de Bordeaux too!

Little bit of France in Kansas!

Brad
_________________
Bought at a price.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bb L.A. Benge 3
Bb Bach ML
Couesnon flugel
American Standard cornet

Voltrane · Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:26 am Post subject:

Hello,

if I can be of any help, do not hesitate to ask questions (or translation). Couesnon's story has always been a mystery also for me.
I am thinking about a trip in Chateau-Thierry (where my best friend is living!) when I have time to see myself. I would like to understand, to discover and to try their new products. It is difficult to understand why with such a name, such a famous flugel, they do not do anything to promote their product or to be present on a forum...But even in Paris I have not seen any new Couesnon horn for sale. You can find everything but Couesnon. How do they make money???
Even if their archives were destroyed, I difficult to think that no retired craftsman is still alive somewhere in France to explain to us at least the meaning of these "Da Vinci codes"!
(By the way, Chateau-Thierry is very close to Reims and Epernay, centers of the Champagne area. That means that if some of you come one day to Chateau-Thierry and do not find anything at Couesnon's, he can be easily find some consolation).
Last: regarding letters on the 2nd valve, if it is really related to bore size, may be is it only a classification (from A:very small; to Z: very large -or the opposite-) and may be did they produce only A,B,N, X size for flugehorn. I cannot see any "real" meaning in french trumpet jargon for such letters.
Regards
Marc

tom turner · Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:03 am Post subject:

I agree with Marc, the letter on the second valve almost surely simply identifies a specific valve cluster they made. On the line it would be very important to use the right one when making a specific instrument!

One hundred years ago this company made huge amounts of instruments that were sold around the world. By 1911 Couesnon had eight factories and employed about 1,000 workers. Through the end of the 1970s they maintained a promenent position in the international marketplace.

Keep in mind that they produced all sorts and types of instruments in their heyday, and trumpets and cornets in all sorts of keys, thus the need to produce quite a few variations in valve bodies I surely suspect.

In the end they'd consolodated their factories into one . . . and it burned to the ground . . . wiping out most everything . . . tooling, mandrels, original build blueprints and research into their horn designs . . . sales records . . . virtually everything. I believe that factory was already in Chateau-Thiery about 50 miles from Paris.

It's sad that this once dominant company, who at one time made some of the first decent trumpets in keys of C, D, Eb, high F and G plus picollo trumptets in A/Bb would burn and all would be lost . . . even the plans and research that contributed to the many models they once developed and made under their name . . . and as stencil horns sold around the world by markets under private label names.

Today's "Couesnon" started as a fiberglass case maker and acquired the Couesnon name. The owner once worked for Couesnon near the end of the original company, and bought rights to use the name years after the fire. She claims to employ some of the workers from the last factory . . . but the time gap between the loss of the Couesnon factory and when the new company started and then finally began to "make" a fluglehorn was a very long time.

I believe that Blessing may make their one and only instrument for them, a fluglehorn with even a different bore and many other variations from the old Couesnon horns.

Marc, if you get to Chateau-Thierry, and can get inside the factory and see what they make and talk to the owner, it could really shed some light on this mystery! I suspect the company if very, very small and keeps a low-key profile . . . and keeps things a mystery due to the fact that they don't make their own horns and don't sell enough horns to make any impact on the world market. Making cases is probably their main market.

Thanks for posting . . . and keep it up!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

Voltrane · Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:37 am Post subject:

Hello,

the first thing I will do is to call my friend living in Chateau-Thierry. He was born there, has been living there...So may be he has some clues to have information (you know in small towns like this, it is not the same if you talk with friends or when you receive mails in english from the wild wide west).
I will try this and keep you inform if I have information. It will not be tomorrow but I plan this.
Question: has anyone of you already asked Couesnon about the letter and the number? (The mail I read was about archives).

To Tom Turner:
I take the opportunity to thank you for all your posts regarding other subjects on this Forum: I always read them carefully and always learnt a lot.

To Brad (777):
I see you spezialise in french dogs (Pyrenées, Dogue de Bordeaux and...Dog de Couesnon).
If your Pyrenées dog is the big white dog I know, its french name is Montagne Pyrenées (means dog of Pyrenean Mountains-between France and Spain). I had one years ago. You can sleep quietly and your horns also. Mine was patroling night and day in my garden...and no one dared to come in!
Happy eastern to everyone.
Marc

777 · Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:35 am Post subject:

somedaylikechet · Veteran Member Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 261

double post

somedaylikechet · Veteran Member Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 261

OK, I finally managed to take some pics of my flugel. Has anyone ever seen that engraving before? There's no serial number on it, except for "323" on the mouthpiece receiver. One repairman said someting like that it might not be a real Couesnon, but manufactured by someone else under their name. But I always thought that it was Couesnon, who manufactured for other brands. Anyways, I don't care, even if it was made on planet Mars, because it sounds so beautiful. The best ebay deal I ever did.
The pics might be deveiving: It's not red. It is nickel plated, but it peels of in some places.

Marc, from your description, you must have about the same horn, right? Letter "N" and "140" stamped on the 2nd valve.

Cheers,

Daniel

said · Regular Member Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 12

Hello Friends

Ok, here is mine. I own a very old monopole. I guess between 1910-1920. It plays still wunderful.

improver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455

Was the adress on the bell of all the couesnons or just some mine has 405 Rue laffyette

777 · Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:33 am Post subject:

Nice horn, said!

Brad
_________________
Bought at a price.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bb L.A. Benge 3
Bb Bach ML
Couesnon flugel
American Standard cornet

said · Regular Member Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 12

Thank you Brad

and all others for your great posts.

@Tom Turner: A GREAT THANK YOU!!!

@brad
I saw yours with your Dog in Lessons

Your Monopole looks like new! Very nice.
And i just came home right now, back from a trip in the city. 2 hours ago i bought a Courtois Flugel, Serial 81xx and guess the condition: like NEW! And i mean like new. Must be from the 60's or 70's (but im not shure, i dont know nothing about serials on Courtois) and sounds really like a dream.

But this is not a Courtois Thread...

Greetings from Zurich
Said