Couesnon Flugelhorn

[Voltrane]

Daniel,

yes, yours seems the same than mine. The only differences is that mine is lacquered and the mouthpiece receiver is "16".
I also agree with you: if it is a clone, what a clone! Plays very well, quite new regarding the lacquer (I bought it in 1981!).
I have no more information on it because I bought it as used horn. At this time I only thought to play, so no interest in flugel history or technology. I remember I paid it something like a quarter of the price of a brand new one, it played well, thus it was enough for me.
I will make some investigations about the meaning of these codes and will post the results (if any) on this thread.
I have already posted these questions on a french trumpet forum a year ago but did not get any answer...
Well, I will try by myself...
Last information: it is not easy to find a Couesnon in good shape in France. The few I have seen are quite wrecks on french e-bay. Sometime a good looking one. Don't know the final price. Recently a guy posted on the french forum he was looking for a used flugel Couesnon or Courtois. No answer.
So, take care of your horns!!!
Regards
Marc

[Billh]

Marc,

Do you ever see these dogs? Niko came to me from France when he was 11 weeks old:

http://tinyurl.com/o3p3p (Niko, Feb, May, July, August)

http://tinyurl.com/ozbz9l (Niko, Jan, Feb, March, April, June, Dec)

http://tinyurl.com/7sbg

First photo (top left picture) is M/Brazil, an older brother of Niko, shown here sailing when he was here visiting from France to do a Ring 3 demonstration.

[Billh]

“Couesnons are what they are . . . a relatively cheap fluglehorn with a classic "wrap" that produces what is considered to be the "correct" way a fluglehorn should sound! This wrap was initially used by both Couesnon and F. Besson . . . and is now used on most fluglehorn models made in the world. However, most newer horns fail to replicate the sound of the Couesnons and the rarer original F. Besson flugles.”

Tom, why, if they are using the same wrap, don’t they duplicate the sound? What does Flip Oakes do to make his horn even better than the old Couesnons - and does the finish on his Flugels affect the sound? These are very interesting threads.

[777]

BillH,
Bouvier des Flandres are neat too. The French did come up with some great dogs, okay, the French Bulldog leaves a little to be desired.
http://www.frenchbulldogclub.org/Docs2003/Past.htm

Brad
_________________
Bought at a price.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bb L.A. Benge 3
Bb Bach ML
Couesnon flugel
American Standard cornet

[Robert Rowe]

[giantsteps]

mine is also a triebert moderne
N on 2nd valve
140 on 2nd valve
213 on leadpipe reciever
#415XX

lacquer finish...bought on ebay about a year ago...

i wonder about the 140/N 140/B relationship...what's the difference?

[giantsteps]

after trying several times to save the spreadsheet i was putting together into a format that i could post this ends up being the best i could do...damn...we should try and get some kind of couesnon database going...


member name manufacturer serial valve# valve letter misc. #

etorres16 couesnon 758xx 140 B 195

markp couesnon 56521 NA N

tom turner couesnon NA NA N 2155

777 couesnon 76xxx NA x 146

j. crowley couesnon 741xx NA N 11 Bb A

cyber_shake couesnon 78565 140 N

royjohn elkhart NA 130 N 21d 834

somedaylikechet monopole NA NA NA 323

jdptpt triebert moderne 41074 140 B

trombapaul monopole star 41414 NA NA

improver couesnon 56xxx NA NA

junkyt couesnon NA NA NA 2155

voltrane monopole NA 140 N 16

said monopole 11056 NA NA

giantsteps triebert moderne 415xx 140 N 213
_________________
Bb: mt. vernon bach ML 37
Flugelhorn: Triebert Moderne

[said]

[Voltrane]

Hello,

I am still waiting news from Chateau Thierry, but I checked the french e-bay and found this animal:
http://cgi.ebay.fr/Vintage-French-Flugelhorn-MARTIN-made-by-COUESNON_W0QQitemZ7410221599QQcategoryZ104540QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I have never seen a Couesnon-made Flugel with such tuning slides position and not aware of Martin in Mâcon (a town in France), so I asked the seller how he can be sure it is a Couesnon.
Here is the answer :
"Bonjour,
Il a été expertisé comme tel par Jean Michel Renard
Appraiser AAIA / Expert pres de la CNES et la CEDEA
renard.musique@wanadoo.fr
lors de mon achat il y a quelques années à la salle des ventes Agutes à Neuilly 92"
Short translation: "It has been expertised by JM Renard, Appraiser/Expert when I bought it".
I immediatly send a mail to JM Renard because if he can say this horn is a genuine Couesnon, I hope he can say what is the meaning of our code, or where I can search.
I am waiting news from him now.
I will post when I have.

Regards
Marc
PS: Brad and Billh: your dogs are really nice!

[giantsteps]

sounds great! it will end up being like the sorely missed flugelhorn.com database except strictly for couesnon...

[Voltrane]

Hello,

I have only a partial answer from M. Renard but it seems to me interesting enough to post it, even if all is not solved.

Here is the translation. The original, in French will be posted at the end, for those interested in.

“Sir,
usually, on the Couesnon instruments, (as far as I know…), serial numbers relate to a making order*, related with a workshop and a period…I do not have the company registers, thus do not know to what relate a particular number.
Regarding the letters, they define a model: the most common used letters were: H.N. for the “Opera” model/B.N. for the “Army” model/G.M.N for the “changing key” instruments (C/Bb) model/ B.O. for 1st Choice instruments/C.G.O. for Student’s instruments/S.O. for beginner’s instruments…
I hope it helps…
JMR”
*(Marc: in the meaning of time classification, not placing an order)

As it is not exactly what we have on our horns and as he did not answer to all my questions, I have sent him a new mail to have more information and I am waiting now (and if he has no more information, at least that gave me an idea for further investigations: to find others instrument experts and to go next Sunday to the Museum of Music in Paris, who knows…).

At least M. Renard confirms that the letters have no real meaning, only codes. I think N can be associated with “model” because it is the only common letter above regarding model classification.

If we have only one letter, mainly N, is it because our horns had no “special” destination but the private market? Could the etorres16 and jdptpt “B” horns come from Army? If there is no “C.G.O.” on our horns, is it because it is obviously a horn for students (in French, “ Monopole Conservatoire” means “ Monopoly of Music School”, so is it enough said?) Did they engrave only the “most significant” letter on “small” horns? And…is there somewhere an H (Opera) model alive???

Well, currently this is my speculation but it becomes interesting and I will look at the e-bay wrecks with other eyes…and keep you inform if I get interesting news.

Regards
Marc

Here is the original mail from JM Renard:
<
Monsieur,
normalement sur les instruments Couesnon, (et autant que je puisse le
savoir...) les numeros de série indiquent un ordre de fabrication,
relatif à un atelier et à une période... Je n'ai pas de registre
"maison" pour savoir exactement à quoi se rapporte tel ou tel numero.
Quant aux lettres, elles caractérisent un modèle: La plupart des lettres
utilisées étaient les suivantes:
H.N. pour le modèle Opéra. / B.N. pour le modèle Armée / G.M.N. pour
les instrument à changement de ton (ut/sib) / B.O. pour le 1er choix /
C.G.O. pour les instruments d'étude / S.O. pour les débutants...
En espérant vous avoir correctement renseigné...
J.M.R.
>>

[improver]

I think we should continue to follw this digging or research because eventually we can find someone who knows some more.

[jpdtpt]

Hi All - Just some additional info on my horn, for those compiling lists: After seeing that some of you have numbers engraved on the leadpipe, I went back and looked, and my leadpipe is stamped 76 S, whatever that means. So my listing would look as below:

jdptpt triebert moderne 41074 140 B 76S

John

[Voltrane]

Hello,

I had yesterday an appointment at the « Mediathèque » of the Music Museum in Paris.
They have two Couesnon catalogues: one from 1915, the second from 1934.

The first one has 296 pages because Couesnon at this time made all kind of instruments: brass, woodwind, piano, strings, drums and so on, the second “only” 130 pages because strings were in a separated catalogue.

In the first one I learned that in 1915, the Couesnon lines were (I keep the original French name but translate and shorten the given explanations)
- Modèle Classique, Série SO (Beginners horn)
- Modèle Universel, Série CGO (better horns than the previous serie)
- Modèle National, Série BO (better than the previous serie but with a smaller bore)
- Modèle GMN Armée (2 keys instruments for the army)
- Modèle BN Armée (only in one key and “freer blowing” than GMN)
- Modèle Opéra, série HN (good intonation and powerful)
- Modèle Monopole (the best they made)

At this time, they made only one Monopole Flugel in Eb and one Monopole Flugel in Bb. And in this catalogue, the reference number was something like 4H. Nothing to do with our numbers.

So J.M. Renard was partially right in his mail: he forgot only to tell me than the Monopole was on the top.

In the 1934 catalogue, the lines are reduced.

There is

- Série A
- Série B
- Série C
- Série Monopole and inside this serie 2 modeles "Monopole Conservatoire » (Bb and Eb)

From Série A to Monopole, the horn quality and equipment improve as you can see in the picture 1 below, regarding Saxhorns.

In this catalogue, there is a “sum up” of Flugelhorns. In picture 2 you can see that the Monopole Flugels are numbered 123, 139, 140. The differences are the number of waterkeys and the keys. If you have a 126, you have a serie A. Strange enough the 140 is said “C and Bb, 2 waterkeys” but I am not sure of the reel meaning of “C and Bb” (did they mean “or”?). Why are the 127 and 140 (both C and Bb) not on the picture?

The new “Modèle Conservatoire” are numbered 141 and 138 “with the new 1932 bore to provide a perfect intonation of the upper E”. As far as I understand what I read elsewhere, the 1932 bore is larger than the previous one. Thus if you have a 141 Bb “Monopole Conservatoire”, you can assume its bore is larger than a Monopole 140 one (provided there was no classification changes since 1934…).

There is no information about the letter on the second valve. But I wonder if it could not be the “finish” because it is the last significant “parameter” explicitly quoted by Couesnon in the 2 catalogues (not a word about the bores size in mm for instance, no mouthpiece width or throat but lot of details on the finish).

At this time they had 7 finishes:

- Nickel-plated
- Mat Silver
- Mat Silver with burnished bell
- “Sand” Silver with golden bell
- Lacquered with “Monolac” (“transparent”)
- Lacquered with “Silverlac”
- Lacquered with “Goldlac”

I would not be surprised if N means “Monolac”…

I have no information about the numbers on the mouthpipe or the serial number.

Last information (a breaking news): Mr A.Couesnon met Mr C.G. Conn in Elkhart on the 09/25/1911.
In the catalogue, there is a picture of the two men shaking hands…

Here are my pictures from the 1934 catalogue:

1- Saxhorn series description

2- Flugel details

3- Cornet details

4- Trumpet details


I hope a catalogue of the 50’ will appear somewhere and I can see it.
Regards

Marc

[somedaylikechet]

Marc,

a big MERCI for your input!!! I'll save the catalogue pics for reference. Really interesting stuff.

By the way: How are Couesnon's trumpets? Were they also famous at one point?

Daniel

[somedaylikechet]

[Voltrane]

Well, the N=Monolac theory is only...a theory. If facts are against, the theory is false. But today I have no other idea about this code.
I am still waiting further information because I wrote to many people, including the "Opera de Paris" and do not get all the answers.
Regarding the Couesnon trumpets, may be were they famous in the past but when I began to learn trumpet ( in the 60') I remember the top in France was already Selmer ( I started with a Bb/A Couesnon and I assume it was the student standard). For me Couesnon's name has always been associated with student horns and when I bought the Flugel I thought it was also one (and I paid 150$!).
I have never tried a Monopole Trumpet (or Cornet) and may be it worth a trial, provided it is a vintage one (before the 60'). May be one day, on e-bay, now that I know a little more...
Regards
Marc

[tom turner]

[Sturmbill]

I am coming a little late to the party, but for the "database", here is my Queenie story:

Purchased new in the summer of 1974
On the bell: Couesnon (C around the O)
Star
Paris
Made in France
84XXX

On the lead-pipe: 80
On 2nd valve, player's right: B
Player's left of valves: 1, 2 & 3

Does that throw any curves at the theories?

Bill

[somedaylikechet]