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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: How about a little poll re: Couesnon versus other Flugel |
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cyber_shake wrote: | MikellB wrote: | I noticed at least one person has replaced his Couesnon.
How many players with Couesnon experience think it's the best?
Which other horns in the $1,500 - $2,500 range are better?
Thanks for your input.
MikellB |
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I know this was asked quite a while ago ... but I felt like responding...
you'll see my (past) queenie posts on the first few pages of this thread. after close to 30 years, i sold my near mint queenie after receiving TLFL #801 from Roy Lawler. The TLFL's intonation was a lot better than the Q and having a 3rd slide trigger was also nice. Since I didn't think I needed 2 flugels, the Q was listed and sold quickly (for more than the $340 I remember paying in the '70's). After a while, I decided that the TLFL was better but not what I really wanted. I now have a Brazilian-made Weril Regium and it very much reminds me of the sweet sound and feel of the mighty Q. Only now I have better valves, better build fit-n-finish + way better intonation. If you get a chance to try the Weril, they are a steal for the price, which I've seen under $1K. Of course there are other options and good horns ... but the little Weril is a keeper to me.
Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth. Now I feel better. |
Interesting.
I looked at a Weril Fleug, but didn't pull the trigger. I really like how it sounded.
Yes -- a great buy.
I later researched Weril, as there isn't a great deal of information on the company. They had a bad rap for a while, regarding finish problems.
Seems as though, being made it Brazil ... fairly close to the Equator, the high humidity in their Summers, ... the finish was not consistent. I had a beautiful L.A. Sax brand Pocket Trumpet in a beautiful translucent white finish that was flawless. Weril made the horn. (Final assembly in the USA, but I think the horns were fairly complete when they arrived from Brazil).
r2 _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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jimmyjazz1968 Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 Posts: 343 Location: Long Island, NY
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Interesting Blaine. Charlie Melk re-did my valves (plating, alignment) on my Queenie and they are great. i love those mushroom like valve caps! I has a different sound-I guess "fluffy" and smooth would best describe-and feel from my yammies of the past. Funny, I do not have a 3rd valve trigger, and I can play the D's and C#'s pretty well in tune with a little lipping (down!). I still practice from time to time with a tuner as I am still getting used to this horn. _________________ James Ingenito
New York
www.jamesingenito.com |
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jimmyjazz1968 Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 Posts: 343 Location: Long Island, NY
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:11 am Post subject: |
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Interesting Blaine. Charlie Melk re-did my valves (plating, alignment) on my Queenie and they are great. i love those mushroom like valve caps! I has a different sound-I guess "fluffy" and smooth would best describe-and feel from my yammies of the past. Funny, I do not have a 3rd valve trigger, and I can play the D's and C#'s pretty well in tune with a little lipping (down!). I still practice from time to time with a tuner as I am still getting used to this horn. _________________ James Ingenito
New York
www.jamesingenito.com |
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tom turner Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 6648 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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The old Queenies were built on the older scale concept, so they really don't need triggers if you play 'em correctly
However, since so many folks today have always played on trumpets with the new scale concept (trumpets with fixed ring 3rd valve slides and 1st valve saddles) so they may not understand the difference.
The older concept allowed any trumpet/cornet/fluglehorn to be lipped into tune, with a very few manual adjustments to be made when playing in a few specific keys. You can't do this on the new scale design!
OLD SCALE
The third valve slides were longer. This made the low D just a tad sharp, and thus made the sharp low Db less sharp and well within range to lip it down without needing a trigger. THE TRADE OFF . . . whereas the low D is flat and the low Db is REALLY flat on a horn (51 cents generally), the Eb is a FLAT note on all horns and thus the longer 3rd valve slides of the old scale required the player to always lip UP the low Eb and lip DOWN the low D and Db. To a lesser extent, all the 2-3 combinations in and above the staff would also be a little flat on the old scale . . . but every note on the horn could be easily played in tune by lipping a little!
Band directors "back then" taught the kids to listen with their ear and to correct by lipping any notes that were out of tune. This meant not only those predictably sharp or flat notes . . . but ALSO to lip or adjust the tuning slides when the player got tired or when the weather cause a horn to go sharp or flat. ALL GOOD THINGS!
NEW SCALE
Today's horns with triggers tune the Eb pretty much dead on, and the other 2-3 combinations are just about dead on too. Thus, these horns play pretty well in tune naturally except for the low D and Db. With the newer 3rd valve slides being shorter to make this happen, it FORCED the horns to have triggers or slides to lower a pretty sharp low D and a HORRIBLY sharp low Db.
THE RUB WITH THE NEW SCALE HORNS . . .
So many kids I hear play new scale trumpets think the horns were tuned and the factory and don't need lipping of notes as they tire. They also fail to "know" to trigger the low D about 1/2-3/4" and to kick that third valve slide out about an inch EACH and EVERY time they finger a 1-2-3 low Db. Thus, I cringe when band kids play music with low Ds and Dbs.
BACK TO THE QUEENIES WITH THE OLD SCALE DESIGN . . .
These horns of the old scale design should have their 3rd valve slides pulled out about 1/2" in most music written in typical wind instrument keys. This puts the low D in tune and makes the Eb and the low Db both about equally out of tune . . . but in the easy to lip range!
Exceptions . . . when playing in the "flat keys" (3 flats or more), you push the third valve slide in to about 1/4" . . . or push it all the way in. You do this when you look at the music ahead of time and notice that there are few, if any low Db notes and not many low D notes (but lots of 2-3 combination notes.
By thinking ahead and adjusting the length of the 3rd valve slide based on the key of the music, one can easily play a Queenie in tune with simple and predictable lipping of the offending notes. Thus, you don't need a trigger on 'em . . . just pull out the 3rd valve slide about 1/2-3/4" before you start playing and learn to lip the offending notes.
This information also works on other trumpets and cornets made on the old scale design through the years. _________________ Tom Turner
Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" instruments (Trumpet, Short Cornet & Fluglehorn) +
Filp Oakes C Trumpet & Flip Oakes "Celebration" Bb Trumpet |
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tom turner Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 6648 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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The old Queenies were built on the older scale concept, so they really don't need triggers if you play 'em correctly
However, since so many folks today have always played on trumpets with the new scale concept (trumpets with fixed ring 3rd valve slides and 1st valve saddles) so they may not understand the difference.
The older concept allowed any trumpet/cornet/fluglehorn to be lipped into tune, with a very few manual adjustments to be made when playing in a few specific keys. You can't do this on the new scale design!
OLD SCALE
The third valve slides were longer. This made the low D just a tad sharp, and thus made the sharp low Db less sharp and well within range to lip it down without needing a trigger. THE TRADE OFF . . . whereas the low D is flat and the low Db is REALLY flat on a horn (51 cents generally), the Eb is a FLAT note on all horns and thus the longer 3rd valve slides of the old scale required the player to always lip UP the low Eb and lip DOWN the low D and Db. To a lesser extent, all the 2-3 combinations in and above the staff would also be a little flat on the old scale . . . but every note on the horn could be easily played in tune by lipping a little!
Band directors "back then" taught the kids to listen with their ear and to correct by lipping any notes that were out of tune. This meant not only those predictably sharp or flat notes . . . but ALSO to lip or adjust the tuning slides when the player got tired or when the weather cause a horn to go sharp or flat. ALL GOOD THINGS!
NEW SCALE
Today's horns with triggers tune the Eb pretty much dead on, and the other 2-3 combinations are just about dead on too. Thus, these horns play pretty well in tune naturally except for the low D and Db. With the newer 3rd valve slides being shorter to make this happen, it FORCED the horns to have triggers or slides to lower a pretty sharp low D and a HORRIBLY sharp low Db.
THE RUB WITH THE NEW SCALE HORNS . . .
So many kids I hear play new scale trumpets think the horns were tuned and the factory and don't need lipping of notes as they tire. They also fail to "know" to trigger the low D about 1/2-3/4" and to kick that third valve slide out about an inch EACH and EVERY time they finger a 1-2-3 low Db. Thus, I cringe when band kids play music with low Ds and Dbs.
BACK TO THE QUEENIES WITH THE OLD SCALE DESIGN . . .
These horns of the old scale design should have their 3rd valve slides pulled out about 1/2" in most music written in typical wind instrument keys. This puts the low D in tune and makes the Eb and the low Db both about equally out of tune . . . but in the easy to lip range!
Exceptions . . . when playing in the "flat keys" (3 flats or more), you push the third valve slide in to about 1/4" . . . or push it all the way in. You do this when you look at the music ahead of time and notice that there are few, if any low Db notes and not many low D notes (but lots of 2-3 combination notes.
By thinking ahead and adjusting the length of the 3rd valve slide based on the key of the music, one can easily play a Queenie in tune with simple and predictable lipping of the offending notes. Thus, you don't need a trigger on 'em . . . just pull out the 3rd valve slide about 1/2-3/4" before you start playing and learn to lip the offending notes.
This information also works on other trumpets and cornets made on the old scale design through the years. _________________ Tom Turner
Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" instruments (Trumpet, Short Cornet & Fluglehorn) +
Filp Oakes C Trumpet & Flip Oakes "Celebration" Bb Trumpet |
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:44 am Post subject: |
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I understand.
r2 _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:46 am Post subject: |
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I understand
r2 _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
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jadickson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:06 am Post subject: |
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I got lucky when trying to date mine. Its serial number is 82xxx. I searched eBay and found a listing for one with almost the exact same serial number, and the seller was the original owner and said he bought it new in the late 1970's. So, try watching eBay?
For what it's worth, the markings on my horn / bell sound exactly like yours, so yours is probably just a few years younger than mine... early 1970's? _________________ Justin Dickson
Middle school band director. Still learning.
www.BandmateTuner.com |
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plp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 7023 Location: South Alabama
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Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Tom, do you think it has something to do with ear training and the lack of such in popular music today?
I grew up (as did you, I'm sure) listening to music performed by professionals with an emphasis on playing IN TUNE and in tone. While we may rail about 'elevator music', the great composers and arrangers of the 1950's and 1960's would accept nothing less from studio musicians, and that was what we heard when listening to popular music.
Enter the blues, Jimi Hendrix, and a general lack of emphasis on playing in tune as 'artistic expression'.
Don't get me wrong, I live in the heart of blues country, get exposure to some great unknown artists at the local level, and love the sound of slide guitar. It has its place in my heart, but has no place in other styles, where sadly it has become the norm rather than the exception.
It has degraded to the point where electronic tuning has become a function of post processed recording engineers rather than a fundamental skill of the performing artist. Today's young trumpet and flugel players seem to have to learn ear training as a dedicated ability to be developed, rather than a foundation of the basics.
Now everyone over the age of 50 join me in a rousing chorus of 'What's the Matter with Kids Today?'......... _________________ Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth |
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Jon Arnold Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 2024
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. Turner's post was dead on! Great information! Thanks Tom! |
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tom turner Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 6648 Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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plp wrote: | Tom, do you think it has something to do with ear training and the lack of such in popular music today? | . . .
Maybe so, but I'm sure certain individuals of all eras use/used their ears rather than just push buttons and expect a horn to do the rest no matter the temperature, humidity or chop conditions.
. . . Quote: | It has degraded to the point where electronic tuning has become a function of post processed recording engineers rather than a fundamental skill of the performing artist. Today's young trumpet and flugel players seem to have to learn ear training as a dedicated ability to be developed, rather than a foundation of the basics. ......... |
Electronic tuners are one of my huge pet peeves. The descendant of the old Conn Strobotuners, it seems that lots of kids (and some adult players) today clip one on their stand, or guitar and spend time looking at the tuner to lip their pitches up or down.
I hate 'em (electronic tuners)! A tuner is always wrong when the ensemble's pitch center drifts during a performance due to temperature, etc. . . . yet the kid with a tuner refuses to budge since he sees he's right.
I have a good friend and band director/sax player I gig with. He keeps one of those d___ things clipped to his stand on gigs. He's always been a "swooper" anyway (swooping into a note from below it) as many sax and amateur singers are sometimes prone to do if not educated how corny this is.
I've played with him about 20 years now and since he got that d___ tuner a few years ago his swooping and loss of a solid pitch center has gotten especially annoying. He'll hit a note, glance at his tuner and lip it up or down without thinking and then be "in tune" . . . although the harmonic overtones are never as rich when a player isn't centering his pitches as he blows the note into any horn.
I've got perfect pitch and it drives me through the roof!!! Worse, his alto is usually flat and his tenor sharp. He's aware he's got an intonation problem now and tries but, dog gone it . . . he was much better when he trusted and listened with his ear!
BACK TO HORNS . . .
Today I believe more kids than ever think horns are perfect (horns can't be) intonation wise, and want a hook, trigger or crutch (LOL) to operate to make things better. NOTHING beats a good ear. _________________ Tom Turner
Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" instruments (Trumpet, Short Cornet & Fluglehorn) +
Filp Oakes C Trumpet & Flip Oakes "Celebration" Bb Trumpet |
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Bruce Lee Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2003 Posts: 759 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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WOW... this thread has great longevity! I even found my post from 2006. A friend of mine has a Monopole similar to mine, with a 50XXX SN that he is considering selling, so I volunteered to do a little research for him.
Tom, you're absolutely right about intonation issues. As posted previously, mine has 2 brass sleeves on it to extend the 3rd valve... roughly 1/2''. I rarely need to use the trigger, as it's just as easy to lip the note. The 2/3 valve combination is one that makes me cringe even seeing the note on the page. I know that I'm going to be "really" flat on that note. I can lip it up close enough to blend, but my resonance on that note suffers.
Intonation absolutely should be taught, as should pitch center. Many people tune on the high side of the note, and in doing so, lose the ability to adjust when the weather or "group pitch" fluctuates, or as the chops tire. It amazes me to no end that people can tune at the beginning of a concert, or just prior to going on stage, and never adjust their tuning from that point on.
Another pet peeve of mine is playing the flugelhorn like a trumpet. On that thought, this is a good place to end this post.
Ciao!
Bruce _________________ teatro333@gmail.com
Please contact me for BE Lessons |
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rwflyboy Regular Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2007 Posts: 13
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den111s New Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2012 Posts: 1 Location: Canary Island & UK
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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tom turner wrote: | The old Queenies were built on the older scale concept, so they really don't need triggers if you play 'em correctly
However, since so many folks today have always played on trumpets with the new scale concept (trumpets with fixed ring 3rd valve slides and 1st valve saddles) so they may not understand the difference.
The older concept allowed any trumpet/cornet/fluglehorn to be lipped into tune, with a very few manual adjustments to be made when playing in a few specific keys. You can't do this on the new scale design!
OLD SCALE
The third valve slides were longer. This made the low D just a tad sharp, and thus made the sharp low Db less sharp and well within range to lip it down without needing a trigger. THE TRADE OFF . . . whereas the low D is flat and the low Db is REALLY flat on a horn (51 cents generally), the Eb is a FLAT note on all horns and thus the longer 3rd valve slides of the old scale required the player to always lip UP the low Eb and lip DOWN the low D and Db. To a lesser extent, all the 2-3 combinations in and above the staff would also be a little flat on the old scale . . . but every note on the horn could be easily played in tune by lipping a little!
Band directors "back then" taught the kids to listen with their ear and to correct by lipping any notes that were out of tune. This meant not only those predictably sharp or flat notes . . . but ALSO to lip or adjust the tuning slides when the player got tired or when the weather cause a horn to go sharp or flat. ALL GOOD THINGS!
NEW SCALE
Today's horns with triggers tune the Eb pretty much dead on, and the other 2-3 combinations are just about dead on too. Thus, these horns play pretty well in tune naturally except for the low D and Db. With the newer 3rd valve slides being shorter to make this happen, it FORCED the horns to have triggers or slides to lower a pretty sharp low D and a HORRIBLY sharp low Db.
THE RUB WITH THE NEW SCALE HORNS . . .
So many kids I hear play new scale trumpets think the horns were tuned and the factory and don't need lipping of notes as they tire. They also fail to "know" to trigger the low D about 1/2-3/4" and to kick that third valve slide out about an inch EACH and EVERY time they finger a 1-2-3 low Db. Thus, I cringe when band kids play music with low Ds and Dbs.
BACK TO THE QUEENIES WITH THE OLD SCALE DESIGN . . .
These horns of the old scale design should have their 3rd valve slides pulled out about 1/2" in most music written in typical wind instrument keys. This puts the low D in tune and makes the Eb and the low Db both about equally out of tune . . . but in the easy to lip range!
Exceptions . . . when playing in the "flat keys" (3 flats or more), you push the third valve slide in to about 1/4" . . . or push it all the way in. You do this when you look at the music ahead of time and notice that there are few, if any low Db notes and not many low D notes (but lots of 2-3 combination notes.
By thinking ahead and adjusting the length of the 3rd valve slide based on the key of the music, one can easily play a Queenie in tune with simple and predictable lipping of the offending notes. Thus, you don't need a trigger on 'em . . . just pull out the 3rd valve slide about 1/2-3/4" before you start playing and learn to lip the offending notes.
This information also works on other trumpets and cornets made on the old scale design through the years. |
Hi Tom
I`m a new member but have been an avid reader of posts here for some time. You clearly have a wealth of knowledge including the Vintage instruments.
I have 2 "Queenie" Flugels a Monople and a basic one. I love the tonal colour and character of them both. Mad or not; I have just bought a Queenie Monopole Piccolo Trumpet (early 60s). I wondered if you have come across this model and what you or other members could tell me about it please. |
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Chris J Regular Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2012 Posts: 15 Location: Southampton UK
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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I have a flugelhorn to add to the collection of photos, and a mouthpiece question.
First of all, I am new to the forum, and am a woodwind player and collector. I particularly collect Couesnon Monopole saxes and clarinets. They are fantastic instruments and largely overlooked by the woodwind community (much to my advantage!)
But I started making music (over 35 years ago) as a trumpeter, and have had an urge recently to get some brasswind chops back - and what better to start on than a Couesnon? OK, there are probably many better to start on than a Couesnon, but that's not the point.
I have bought this beast, below:
But back to my question.
After much research, I had a Couesnon shank Curry mouthpiece shipped from USA - but it hardly enters the lead pipe. The horn came with a Bach 1 1/2 CFL which, from the witness marks on the shank, clearly has not been played in the instrument. I do not know the taper of the Bach
The photo below shows where the Bach shank gets to, and some dimensions. The external diameter of the shank is 10.7mm. The inside diameter of the very opening of the lead pipe receiver is 10.0mm (not 1mm as I entered wrongly on the photo) and measuring nearly 1.5cm into the lead pipe (which is as far as my calipers go) the internal diameter is about 9.95mm
Below shows were the shank of the Curry French taper &FL-F gets to in the lead pipe
The question, of course, is what shank mouthpiece do I need?
Chris |
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Flugelnut Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Jul 2004 Posts: 478 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:05 am Post subject: |
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The obvious (to me) solution is to have the cylindrical end of the Curry piece turned or sanded down to fit the lead pipe, like a tuning slide fit.
You'll lose the plating there but it's inside the pipe anyway so why care.
I had the same problem once, apparently the tubing used for these leadpipes was made to fairly loose tolerances, so you really have to hand fit the mouthpiece. |
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Voltrane Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 629 Location: Paris (France)
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Chris J Regular Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2012 Posts: 15 Location: Southampton UK
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Marc
That you for posting those links. It is interesting to see that even then, the Monopole grade was marketed, but it seems yet to be associated with the Fasces based logo as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces
I don't know when "Conservatoire" was added to the Monopole name.
Chris |
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scipioap Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2012 Posts: 368 Location: Waltham, MA
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, those are fascinating historical finds. I especially like the band photos where all the players seem to be staring in random directions!...why didn't this group portrait technique ever take off? Also, the Bonne vs. Mauvaise positions for holding each instrument is quite interesting. |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Voltrane/Marc,
Many, many thanks for this. A real treasure trove of information on the Couesnon flugels, but also on all kinds of aspects of historical brass . . . I doubt that I would be able to find anything like this outside of one of the big libraries in NYC or Chicago or the Library of Congress.
The line drawings of various altos from ~1830 to the catalog date were fascinating and the picture of the altar boy playing the ophicleide was priceless.
When I can take some time from my Italian lessons, I'll translate some of the articles from the French for myself . . . _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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