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BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6437
Location: AVL|NC|USA
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 Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2002 8:43 am Post subject: |
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In the Forum Index it says: “Donald S. Reinhardt — Find out about the teachings of ‘Doc’ Reinhardt.” It does not say “Find out about everything that contradicts with the teachings of Doc Reinhardt.”
We’re trying to keep this 100% pure Reinhardt information . . . if we quote out of a book or lesson sheet by Doc, that’s about as pure as it can get. Occasionally we try to enlarge and expound on what he was saying in an effort to make things clearer, and when done sincerely I see no problem with that. When we start theorizing and postulating, the message gets watered down.
Any dedicated Reinhardt student can immediately spot a whole lot of non-Reinhardt information, and we’re the ones who are keeping an eye on this forum to keep the integrity of Reinhardt’s teaching as intact as we possibly can in a forum such as this.
If you post something that’s promoting a viewpoint in contradiction to what Doc Reinhardt taught, it’s liable to be deleted by me, the current moderator of this forum.
Thanks for understanding our intentions here.
Rich
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Wilktone
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:48 am Post subject: |
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May I offer a slightly different take on this? I don't want to stir up trouble, but my own response to this (as a moderator of a trombone forum on another web site) is typically different. Keep in mind that the forum I moderate isn't dedicated to discussing the ideas of one particular teaching, as this one is, so how I deal with these problems is necessarilly different than how Rich feels he should moderate this forum. I offer these thoughts merely as a different take on the problems experienced here.
Certainly there are times when I find myself needing to edit content or delete posts - particularly when someone is just plain rude, vulgar, or is just trying to start a flame war.
But when an idea is presented that conflicts with what is being discussed I don't feel that it is healthy to delete the post or attack the poster. In fact, very often that is exactly what that poster wants - to get people worked up and get some virtual attention. Instead, I think it's much better to rationally shoot down the idea alone and move on to the topic at hand.
Perhaps this is because I have a bit of a libertarian streak in me, but I feel that ideas, regardless of where they come from, should stand on their own merit, not because someone we admire said them. This, to me, is the greatest strength of the Pivot System - it is the one embouchure system that not only seems to be most effective helping brass players (when it is correctly interpreted), but also most accurately describes what I've seen with excellent brass players who have never even heard of the Pivot System. It can withstand a debate of ideas because it is so logical, complete, and accurate compared to virtually any other approach.
As an academic, I'm trained to question things and try to decide whether something is true by using logic, research and experimentation. I never had the opportunity to meet Dr. Rienhardt, but my understanding is that he used logic, research and experimentation to develop the Pivot System. If someone can come along and show logical research that can be reproduced that discounts something Dr. Reinhardt believed, then I think it deserves my attention. When someone comes along and tries to discount something in the Pivot System without logic or isn't based on accurate research and experimentation I feel it is my place to publically show the error of their ideas (and only their ideas). This kind of debate is considered healthy and necessary in science and academia for the general knowledge in the field to grow.
Maybe this forum shouldn't be the place for that kind of exchange, but I think we could do the cause of spreading Reinhardt's teachings a better service by discussing the logic behind his teachings, rather than merely censoring contradictory ideas. If the Pivot System can't stand up to logic, then maybe we should all rethink what we believe to be true.
Furthermore, if the Pivot System can't stand up to logic, then I'd be very surprised.
Just some thoughts on a Sunday morning.
Dave
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David Wilken
dave@trombone.org
http://faculty.adams.edu/~dmwilken
[ This Message was edited by: Wilktone on 2002-10-20 12:53 ] |
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BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6437
Location: AVL|NC|USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:05 am Post subject: |
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On 2002-10-20 12:48, Wilktone wrote:
<snip>
Certainly there are times when I find myself needing to edit content or delete posts - particularly when someone is just plain rude, vulgar, or is just trying to start a flame war.
But when an idea is presented that conflicts with what is being discussed I don't feel that it is healthy to delete the post or attack the poster. In fact, very often that is exactly what that poster wants - to get people worked up and get some virtual attention. Instead, I think it's much better to rationally shoot down the idea alone and move on to the topic at hand.
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Hey, Dave . . . believe it or not, I agree with you. However, presenting a conflicting idea is not the same as promoting a conflicting idea. And I'm always conscious of the Reinhardt "newcomer" who wanders into this forum looking for good, solid information a la Reinhardt. So when somebody promotes pedal tones, let’s say, I feel it is my duty to either jump right in with a reply or eliminate the post, depending on the severity of the promotion of the blatantly non-Reinhardt procedure.
Here's what I wrote: “If you post something that’s promoting a viewpoint in contradiction to what Doc Reinhardt taught, it’s liable to be deleted by me, the current moderator of this forum.” I realized that I probably ought to issue some kind of warning about what could possibly happen if you get on here trumpeting some non-Reinhardt idea (pun intended).
And then we have the trouble makers who are bitter and negative anyway, and they just want to stir up controversy and see how riled up they can the rest of us. I’d rather just keep deleting those posts than to see topics steered way off course and end up in the Reveille forum.
If that’s a bad thing, then I will anticipate being relieved as moderator of this forum. If it’s not a bad thing, then the trouble makers will get the message and won’t continue bothering us here. I will be very interested to see what transpires.
Rich
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Wilktone
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Wow, that was a quick reply! Apparently we're both surfing around the forum here at the same time.
| Quote: | | However, presenting a conflicting idea is not the same as promoting a conflicting idea. And I'm always conscious of the Reinhardt "newcomer" who wanders into this forum looking for good, solid information a la Reinhardt. So when somebody promotes pedal tones, let’s say, I feel it is my duty to either jump right in with a reply or eliminate the post, depending on the severity of the promotion of the blatantly non-Reinhardt procedure. |
Yep. Part of the trouble with a forum like this is that there is usually a significant time delay in responding to misinformation and flames (except today  ). A newcomer can read these posts before this can happen and, as you suggested, end up with the wrong idea.
| Quote: | | Here's what I wrote: “If you post something that’s promoting a viewpoint in contradiction to what Doc Reinhardt taught, it’s liable to be deleted by me, the current moderator of this forum.” |
Really my only difference of moderation style (again, a different forum that necessarily needs a different approach) is that I prefer to respond to the different viewpoint, rather than censoring it (provided that it is not vulgar or rude). This has the benefit of not only helping to avoid the problem of misinformation, but also can help a newcomer understand why Reinhardt taught something.
For example, if tonguing between the teeth (a habit Reinhardt felt was to be avoided) never comes up here because the post was deleted instead of being responded to, a newcomer may never learn to avoid this problem. If, on the other hand, someone promoted that idea here and one or three of the knowledgeable Reinhardt students responded to the post with the reasons why, a newcomer will gain a better understanding of the Pivot System.
| Quote: | | And then we have the trouble makers who are bitter and negative anyway, and they just want to stir up controversy and see how riled up they can the rest of us. I’d rather just keep deleting those posts than to see topics steered way off course and end up in the Reveille forum. |
I understand yor concern to not turn this section of the forum into a Reveille section devoted to debating the Pivot System. In my experience the best way to discourage the trouble makers is to calmly and rationally discuss only their ideas and then quickly move on. As you say, they are mainly interested in stirring up trouble and gettting us riled up. If we discuss the ideas without getting riled up they usually get bored and move on.
| Quote: | | If that’s a bad thing, then I will anticipate being relieved as moderator of this forum. If it’s not a bad thing, then the trouble makers will get the message and won’t continue bothering us here. I will be very interested to see what transpires. |
I certainly hope that it won't come to the point of anyone suggesting you be relieved as moderator! I feel you've done an excellent job here. My ideas presented here are just that my ideas based only on what I believe. You are the one in the hot seat and have to follow your own conscious and experience here. Who is to say that you're approach isn't better than mine? I want you to know that I support what you are doing here and will continue to do so in the future.
Thanks!
Dave
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