Don't stop now!!!

[PH]

I'm think learning more on this DSR forum than on any other part of TH. It is a little hard to penetrate the jargon at times, but EVERYTHING I read here makes more sense than any other physically oriented method I've encountered.

I'm pretty convinced that my two favored pedagogies, Adam & Caruso, work because they do not use a physical orientation. However, I am also becoming convinced that they also work because in the final result evry successful Caruso & Adam student ends up adapting to the idiosyncracies of his/her type according to DSR.

Keep the good stuff coming. I particularly could use more help understanding the differences between the types.

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2002-10-24 09:46 ]

[BeboppinFool]

[hairy james]

Hey Rich,

I'm not as generous as you think, I've got free nights and weekends on my cell phone. If you keep this up you'll have everyone believing that I'm a prosperous successful trumpet player.

Sorry gotta run, have to get to Burger King before they fire me.

Take care.


Chris "Would you like fries with that?" LaBarbera

[spanky]

you guys talk about the biggest whoppers. you'd make imbibing fishermen.

[Wilktone]

[mcstock]

Pat,
You might want to look at an article by Ron Falcone called, "Revisiting Caruso's Brass Calisthenics." (The Instrumentalist, March 1994, p. 34). The author is a long-time Caruso student who acknowledges that his students were getting mixed results with the routine. He describes his experiences with learning about Dr. Reinhardt's approach and the success several students who did not thrive on the Caruso approach experienced.
Best wishes,
Matt

[BeboppinFool]

Folks, it would appear that many posts from yesterday disappeared (yesterday being 10/25/02) . . . not only on this forum but in many places on the Trumpet Herald.

I don't suppose there's somebody out there who saved them and could re-submit them, is there?

What are the chances? Hopefully this won't be a deterrent to further posting.

Rich

_________________
Rich Willey
www.boptism.com
5 Mountain Heritage Place, Candler, NC 28715
828-665-3864 / Fax 503 214 7155
Hear my recordings free: www.mp3.com/RichWilley

[ This Message was edited by: BeboppinFool on 2002-10-26 07:34 ]

[BeboppinFool]

Thanks to Matt (mcstock) who found these files by looking through the history on his computer, here's what we lost from yesterday:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Rich Willey / BeboppinFool

Hey, Matt, I'd like to read that article. I'll need to look that one up . . . I don't suppose it's been reprinted online anywhere, has it?

Just a couple days ago I was talking to a man who had studied for quite some time with Reinhardt and Caruso and told me that the biggest difference between the Reinhardt method and the Caruso method was that "Caruso really didn't have a method." Those are his words, not mine. I'm sure Charly Raymond would have a field day with that . . . but having never studied with Caruso myself (although I took five lessons over a five-month period with Laurie Frink) I cannot support that statement.

And I'm sure Charly, who never studied with Reinhardt, would not be able to satisfactorily dispute the difference between the two "methods," even with all his fantastic and amazing (yet sometimes tedious and tiring) debating skills.

But, this one goes out for Pat, who doesn't want to see it stop now!

A buddy of mine in NYC was big on Bill Adam, and had studied with him several times (he didn't go to college where Adam taught, but studied privately) and this friend used to ask me questions frequently about Reinhardt. Well, he called me a few weeks ago to tell me he had gotten a copy of the Encyclopedia and wants to study with a Reinhardt-knowledgeable student. He said that much of what he read was right on the money for him and he had never observed any other teacher hitting so many nails squarely on the head (pertaining to brass playing, that is).

I'm happy to report (to all those who may wonder) that Reinhardt taught me way more than just about chops. He was also a great music teacher and a great instructor in living life. He really had it all, including a great sense of humor.

Gotta split . . . later, ladies and gents.

Rich

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Walter:

Rich- Some really nice posts.

I know that to this day, I look at practicing by myself as a chance to find my weaknesses & problems. I suppose that I got that orientation from Doc, but he must have used a velvet fist to move me in that direction. The thing that I appreciate most from studying with Doc is this: Whatever problems that I have, I know that they can be worked out, and that there is also an intelligent way to develop skills.

I knew the basics of triple- and double- tonguing before I studied with Doc, but he gave me a way to really maximize my development. After studying with Doc for a few years, I began to simultaneously study with Seymour Rosenfeld, of the Philadelphia Orchestra. I was assigned to Rosenfeld when I went to Temple University's music school. At the time, Rosenfeld was into using TKT TKT TKT instead of TTK TTK TTK for triple tonguing. He wanted me to learn his way, but I'd been using the standard way that Doc taught me for years. Rosenfeld agreed to let me do my thing if I could demonstrate to him that I could play some etude with lots of triple tongued intervals. Needless to say, Doc's training paid off, and Rosenfeld stopped bugging me.

Please note: I have enormous appreciation and admiration for Rosenfeld. He taught me to really listen to what was going on, both in my own playing and when playing with others. Rosenfeld is a gifted musician, and I've never heard anyone match sounds and styles with others better than he did. Both Doc and Rosenfeld told me on several occasions that they liked what the other one was doing for me. I am deeply appreciative of what each of these men have done.

Rich, what you said about Doc's concern for overall musicianship is something that I can attest to. His system is truly more than a high register system. When I hear players talk about what they learned from other great teachers, I usually can think of a counterpart in what I learned from Doc.

Thanks again for keeping this section a place for all brass players to come and learn.

walter

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From mcstock:

Rich,

As far as I know that article isn't on line, but any college with a music program should have the magazine.

This thread reminds me of something I was once told about teaching, "Instructions should be as simple as possible, but, no simpler." For someone who got what they needed from a Caruso, Adam or Chicago oriented approach, it's probably tempting to dismiss Rienhardt as "voodoo," "garbage," or worse. For the students who are spinning their wheels, hurting themselves and leaving lessons thinking, "If I could play it better, don't you think I would have!! Duh!!" an analytical approach might be necessary. My point is that maybe the real art of teaching is knowing how simple is simple enough, but no simpler, for each individual student.

Rambling aside, Rich, I'd like to hear more about your experience with Laurie Frink. Beneficial? What were hoping to gain from your studies? (Maybe this question belongs in another forum.)
Thanks,
Matt

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Larry Smithee:

Walter (& anyone?),

The point above brings together someting I've often wondered about in regard to triple tonguing. If we consider that Rosenfeld's method results in TKT TKT TKT etc., and the "standard" school of thought results in TTK TTK TTK. An interesting visual occurs if one places these two approaches together without the spaces, more or less in the manner in which they would sound. In other words both systems become nearly identical as in TKTTKTTKTTKTTKTTKTTKTTKTTKTTK. Any thought on this, assuming that my point is clear?

Larry Smithee

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Many, many thanks, Matt, for rescuing our lost content. Makes me proud to be associated with this team, here!

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz

[Pops]

[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2003-05-13 11:05 ]

[Pops]

[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2003-05-13 11:05 ]

[PH]

Often Adam will point out that your embouchure has changed, but only after he has guided you through the change by prescribing certain exercises or a certain approach to sound, articulation, etc. He does (note present tense!) consciously develop the student's embouchure. However, he discourages the student from thinking about the embouchure or being aware of the way he (as teacher/mentor) is guiding the embouchure's evolution. This keeps the student mentally calm, physically relaxed, and keeps the focus on the sound of the music and the flowing air.

[BeboppinFool]

Since we're talking about our experiences with other teachers and how those experiences might have compared with our experiences with Reinhardt, I'll toss in the fact that I went to Don Jacoby in late '79 and early '80 when I was having severe chop problems (I was a student at NTSU at the time; seeing Jake was much closer and cheaper than a trip to Philadelphia). When I say severe chop problems, I mean that I could barely get out of the staff. A G right above tuning C was as high as I could play to save my life! After about 5 or 6 lessons with Jake, it was clear to me that he wasn't going to find the answer, although he did have me drinking a beer (yeah, right, at least one) before I practiced and/or played a gig, and before that I wasn't able to drink and play. I guess you could say he helped me over that hurdle.

But I finally was able to get the bread together to schedule a week in Philly (I thought it was going to take that long, silly me) and 3 lessons during that week with Doc. Well, about an hour into the first lesson he found the problem. He suddenly looked at me and told me to try placing my mouthpiece "too low" on my embouchure, and botta bing! I was hammering out C's and E's and even some G's like they had been there all along. Turns out I had somehow misread his previous instructions and thought that he wanted me to gradually move my mouthpiece placement higher, and that pushed me into IIIA land, which really doesn't work when you have a IIIB pivot. No wonder I was going so totally crazy!

Man, I sure do miss Doc!

Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz

[DSR]

Rich,

My father can relate to your experience. In his teens some teacher at the international music camp had told him, "No, put your mouthpiece up here like me!" My dad couldn't get play of the staff after that, and not knowing any better, thought this new placement was technically correct....because he was told so.

None of his teachers could cure his chop problems so he went to Reinhardt. After a week or so of having him play IIIB and establishing a pivot, he said "Why don't you put the mouthpiece down here"...IVA style. Tada! High range again! Then Doc told him to use anchor tonguing (type V or VI???) to open up his sound because he had small mouth cavity.

How many players that went to Reinhardt do you think had an immediate or instantaneous jump in range, or tonguing ability, or tone production at some point during their study with him?

-Brendan

[bgibson]

Rich, Brendan, et al;
There were many players that had immediate improvement in one or more areas during or soon after their orientation.
I noticed improvement in my range about a month or so after my orientation. Things really started to "fall into place" chop -wise for me two years after my first series of lessons. (I was in pretty bad shape the first time I saw Doc. Rich can testify to that statement)
I would guess that the majority of Reinhardt students would fall into those two categories. (1. Immeadiate improvement-2. Improvement within the first 6 months to year of study) That could be an interesting poll.
Unfortunatly, there were several people that allegedly studied with Doc that really did not follow through with his routines or never returned after the first session and/or gave up because they did not have an instant double C. Here is where there may be some misconception about the "Pivot System".
I would NEVER have the range I do today if I had not studied with Doc. I owe him my career.
WEG

[Wilktone]