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_TrumpeT_
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Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 1426
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 Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:36 pm Post subject: is tonguing in the high register harder than slurring? |
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| Is this something you just have to work on? anyone find tonguing to be easier? |
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waynardferguson
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Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 73
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: |
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It depends on how my chops feel for me.
But generally, most people find tonguing up there harder. How many people do you know that can double tounge on a double C? Maybe if you are Allen Vizzutti you can do that, but most people typically can't. |
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Umyoguy
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Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 1726
Location: Baltimore
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| Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: is tonguing in the high register harder than slurring? |
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| _TrumpeT_ wrote: | | Is this something you just have to work on? anyone find tonguing to be easier? |
It may sound redundant to say this, but anything you want to improve on requires practice.
I suggest you use Clarke Technical Studies (or an equivalent) to identify the range that gives you problems. When you've identified it, drop down a third and work that for a week or two.
For instance, if you find that you're having trouble tonguing E's and F's (on top of the staff) cleanly, drop down to studies that hover around C and D. Get those gorgeous. Playing those confidently will change your attitude on those notes that are slightly higher.
Over time you'll find that this practice technique will help you with every aspect of playing. This type of practice will also reinforce keys you may not be as familiar with. Progressing upward by halfsteps will force you to learn keys like C# and Eb that you might not be as comfortable with.
Good luck,
Jon |
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Bill Dishman
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Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: Tonguing vs. Slurring in the upper register |
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I find this to be a serious misperception for many players.
(slurring is easier than tonguing in the upper register)
Keeping the tongue relaxed in the upper register is the key. Do not let it become tense and rigid. It is easy to let this happen as the air speed increases.
What many players have problems with is that as the register increases they also tongue harder (than in the middle or lower registers)
This is a problem as the result is a harsher tongue that is also sluggish and slower even to the point where is may actually stop the air flow entirely between notes in extreme cases.
When going into the upper register, try to keep the tongue action the same in relaxation terms. The tip may rise up higher behind the upper teeth, but don't let tenseness creep in. As the air velocity increases, keep the tongue action the same. It may sound like you are tonguing harder but it is not really doing this. The aural result is from the air speed and the tongue being relaxed and even.
Many young players play accents with a harder tongue. I try to discourage this. Let the air make the accent with a normal tongue.
There are exceptions such as certain jazz band techniques or even marching band effects but other than these I teach that the tongue action should be the same at all dynamics. It is the air speed that make the tongued notes sound different, not the tongue action itself.
Even staccato playing should be light and relaxed (not tense)
This will yield a delicate and flowing musical result.
Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Floirida |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yes it is hard for most players to tongue passages as high as they can slur passages - but that is because most players haven't learned how to tongue properly in the way the great players all do.
Once I learned to tongue the correct way, I found that as I developed I could tongue passages as high and easily as I could slur them. Even now, after retiring from professional playing two years ago I can still pick up the horn and single tongue, double tongue or triple tongue easily to G above High C.
My secret (though it really shouldn’t be a “secret” since it’s been published in various Method Books for more than 100 years) is that I tongue in the way Herbert L. Clarke, Liberati, Claude Gordon, Raphael Mendez, and probably just about every virtuoso brass player tongues.
Perhaps the best explanation of this "secret" is in Herbert L. Clarke’s “Characteristic Studies for the Cornet”, published in 1915:
| Herbert L. Clarke wrote: | My tongue is never rigid when playing, and rests at the bottom of my mouth, the end pressed slightly against the lower teeth. I then produce the staccato, by the centre of the tongue striking against the roof of the mouth. This I have practiced so as to acquire rapid single tongueing without fatigue, nore causing a clumsy tone, and when under full control, Double and Triple Tongueing become a simple matter by diligent practice, keeping the mind upon each articulation…
…when the muscles of the lips are contracted for high tones, one would necessarily pronounce “Te,” and when relaxed for low tones, “Tu”; consequently it would be unnatural, and almost impossible to use the same syllable for tones in all registers on the cornet… |
Claude Gordon coined the term “K-Tongue Modified” or “KTM” to describe this (correct) method of tonguing. The reason is because in the normal (wrong) method of tonguing, the player tongues with his or her tongue tip, where as in K-Tonguing, it is the rear portion of the tongue that performs the articulation. With KTM, it is the front-middle portion of the tongue that performs the articulation, placing it somewhere between T-Tonguing and K-Tonguing, hence the term “K-Tongue Modified.”
When the player tongues using the KTM method, the tongue has to move only a very short distance between the articulation and where it must be during the sustaining of the tone. This makes for far greater range, both when single and when multiple tonguing styles are being employed. It also makes for far greater accuracy (less missed notes). When using the KTM way of tonguing, the tongue is also allowed to be all the way forward in the mouth, and this is very important.
When tonguing in the typical (wrong) way using the tip of the tongue, the tongue is forced back farther in the mouth which can cause a “choking” or “throat constriction” feeling as the player tries to hit high notes. And when the note is articulated with the tongue tip up high behind the top teeth, the tongue must travel a long way down to the “ahh” position for lower notes or the “eee” (like when saying “sea”) position for higher notes. In essence, for a brief moment, the tip of the tongue is literally in the way of the airstream, and this is what causes rough sounding attacks, especially in the upper register.
When KTM tonguing ability is developed, incredible gains in accuracy occur throughout the range of the instrument. KTM is the reason I can pick up a horn cold and nail an F or even a G above High C as my first note of the day – or of the week. This makes for a great impression when I start a Brass MasterClass or give a new student his or her first lesson! There's nothing like taking a cold trumpet out of the case, inserting the mouthpiece and nailing a full power F above High C to make it clear I can "walk the walk" as well as "talk the talk"...
For more information about KTM, read the wealth of information available at the following Websites:
http://mattgraves.netfirms.com/k_tongue_modified.htm
http://www.purtle.com/jeff_articles_how.html
http://www.purtle.com/jeff_articles_what.html
http://www.purtle.com/jeff_articles_faq.html
http://www.trumpetguild.org//itgyouth/masterclass/Purtle.htm
http://mattgraves.netfirms.com/john_mohan.htm
You’ve now been given the “secret” of how we do it. The rest is up to you. Fortunately for those who have developed the ability and now make a living playing, just knowing the info I’ve given you will do nothing for you. Even now that you have this knowledge, it still will take years of diligent practice to develop into a pro-level player (otherwise I wouldn’t be sharing it). It is the rare player who takes the info I’ve shared and actually practices and practices and sticks with it until it develops. Then that player gets what he deserves – fantastic playing ability. Sadly, the player who doesn’t receive this info, or doesn’t make use of it can and will practice for hours a day, year after year and see virtually no progress. You have to decide for yourself which player you’ll be.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
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1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
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Ex LA Studio Musician
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deleted_user_fdb91a0
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| What about picking up the horn cold and playing a full-out double G, or C even? |
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AverageJoe
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Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 4116
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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^^^^
Forgive him, John. Hopefully, he was joking anyway....
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"Every time I hear you play, you sound better than the next..." |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| drewwilkie86 wrote: | | What about picking up the horn cold and playing a full-out double G, or C even? |
Well, yes, that's a benefit, too.
Sounds like you could do the same from your recording of the MF tune. You ought to record a clean version - that would impress people more (though it wouldn't be funny anymore).
Cheers,
John |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| AverageJoe wrote: | ^^^^
Forgive him, John. Hopefully, he was joking anyway.... |
Yea, probably. Or maybe it's just a case of trumpetplayerpersonalityitis...
I think we all get it from time to time (and yes, I'm speaking for myself as well).
 |
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deleted_user_fdb91a0
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Just trying to be funny, John (playing the stereotypical trumpet jock)...no disrespect. |
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AverageJoe
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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"Every time I hear you play, you sound better than the next..." |
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mafields627
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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One thing that I've noticed recently is that most methods that are working on range are slurred and not tongued. At some point, the transition to tonguing in the upper register has to be made, and very few, including myself, have made it.
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No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| mafields627 wrote: | | One thing that I've noticed recently is that most methods that are working on range are slurred and not tongued. At some point, the transition to tonguing in the upper register has to be made, and very few, including myself, have made it. |
The upper register exercises in all of Claude Gordon's books vary between tonguing and slurring. In fact, in his most popular book, "Systematic Approach to Daily Practice for Trumpet," most of the upper range exercises are tongued. |
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x9ret
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Joined: 02 Jun 2014
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Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Very good thread this. Often we hear people say I can play a high note but maybe what we should be verifying is... what can you do with it? Can you tongue it? Can you shake it? Can you jump to it from a given low note? Can you play it in the middle of a piece 3 minutes in or unexpectedly in the middle of a study?
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Last edited by x9ret on Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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x9ret
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Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: |
The upper register exercises in all of Claude Gordon's books vary between tonguing and slurring. In fact, in his most popular book, "Systematic Approach to Daily Practice for Trumpet," most of the upper range exercises are tongued. |
Yes. I find for myself that I now get high notes with less pressure than ever before by slurring but when introducing the tonguing the tension returns, so I have to work on this.
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Grits Burgh
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:50 am Post subject: |
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I think that there is a song about this:
Does your tongue hang low?
Does it wobble to and fro?
Can you tie it in a knot?
Can you tie it in a bow?
Can you throw 'it over your shoulder
Like a continental soldier
Does your tongue hang low?
Warm regards,
Grits
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rbtrumpet86
Regular Member
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
Posts: 75
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:35 am Post subject: |
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I've struggled with this same thing in my playing. I could slur in the upper register all day, but when I tried to tongue, it became so much harder.
One thing I've done recently is to play my Chicowicz flow studies up to the top note of the exercise, and then when I feel the sound is balanced and resonant, I'll add one articulated note, then finish the exercise. The idea is I want to learn how to produce the same ease and focus in the sound when I tongue as I have when I slurred up to it.
Once one articulation feels solid and easy, I upped it to 4 articulations. Then 8, and so on. Now, I'm at 2 full measures of 16th notes, and I'm able to keep the same ease that I had (most of the time) when I was doing one articulation.
This takes time and discipline, but establishing the habits of ease and focus in a controlled way makes it easier to expand.
Hope this helps!
Ryan |
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