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Pedal Tone - Open C


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Andiroo
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:43 pm    Post subject: Pedal Tone - Open C Reply with quote

Hey when playing any of the Stamp exercises that work their way down to a pedal C, i can't get the C to sound when played open.

The pedals going down to it are fine (they're getting better eveyday) however when i get to the C my trumpet seems to slot to the double pedal C (i think it's this pitch) was do you recommend i do to try and get the C to play at the correct pitch?

Just practise? I have but no improvement on this!

Generally i don't go over the stamp with my teacher as i always warm up before the lesson I'm not seeing him for another 3 weeks and forgot to ask him about it today. I've been doing the stamp for over a month now.
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one_trumpet
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im terrible at playing it open and I have a silly strong low register. I would suggest playing it 123 and lifting a valve in half steps (13, 23, 12.. etc) but not moving until the new combination sounds as good as the previous. Its tedious but it works pretty well. Im curious to know what everybody else will say.
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jpetrocelli
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a challenge for many players of all levels. I know a couple guys who play trumpet in a couple major orchestras who can't do it either, so don't feel bad, and don't feel like it's just you.

I can't do it either. If I play open, a pedal Bb sounds. I have to play the C 123.

However, If I play a friend of mine's monette, or another guys Bach, I can do it open....Just not on my yamaha. Incedentally, the same goes for those couple friends of mine who have big orchestra jobs. They can do it on different horns, but just not thier own.

I've narrowed it down to equipment. I'm not sure if this is true, or just my excuse, but this is what I say. There is no reason, at least that I can explain, why I can play it on some horns, and not others...
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NiViBri
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's something you might try?
The pedal C is a matter of "FEEL". Because the F. E. Eb. D.and Db come out so strong, we try and play the C the same way.
It's a matter of both overkill (hitting a nice Open, Bb, lol) and getting used to the feel of the new register (not quite as relaxed. YOU must make it sound)
You will find that the C, and B, will play (SOUND) if you approach them from a "softer" idea of volume, controlling (directing) the air better, at the beginning, and then work up the volume.
Victor
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dedalus78
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pedal C has a very different feel from the Db, and above. The best way I have found to teach the pedal C, is to practice buzzing it on the mouthpiece, then put the mouthpiece in and do EXACTLY THE SAME THING. Failsafe.
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tHeTrUmPeTmAsTeR
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I agree with the mouthpiece thing. I have been working on gettin a strong pedal C since Byron Stripling recommended it in a masterclass. I did it 123 until it sounded like it was open, and then I would just try anything to get it to sound when I really was open. When you get it, it will slot at around a B, not a C. You have to train yourself to bend it up a little. Or maybe that's just my horn, since I do also agree with the equipment theory. But anyway, spend a little time doing slurs on the mouthpiece like C arpeggios, starting on pedal C, if you can get it on the mouthpiece. If not, start on middle C and go down. It will come. You will probably have to mess with tongue placment a little, as I found when Mr. Stripling was talking about it. He recommends moving the tongue forward a little it the mouth, and that has worked well for me.

Best of luck
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dlyren
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pedal C is naturally a flat note - on any trumpet. I find with my students that the best way to approach is to practice getting an A or Bb open and solid - then very gradually start to lip up those notes until you can reach a B and then a C. It sometimes takes a few weeks, but most of my students have been able to get it.

Many times its easier to get the pedal C on a C or Eb trumpet - or especially on a flugel. You might try it on those horns to get the "feel" and then see if it carries over to the Bb trumpet.

Del
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tHeTrUmPeTmAsTeR
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and also, put in a harmon mute, and try it then. For whatever reason, it opens that register real well. I did alot of practice like that as well.
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Andiroo
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried the "softly softly" approach today, and i managed to get the C to play open (played with 123 softly, and then open) only for a brief period of time, and then the trumpet slotted to a different note below it which is fatter than my whole pedal range(as said in the last post).

As for playing pitches on my mpc, my hearing to pitch coordination is next to nothing. If someone plays a note i won't even come close when i'm naming it. Although when i'm playing my “inability” to pitch hasn’t been a problem. I’m not tone death either I can tell when I’m playing “wrong” notes or I’m out of tune.

This is why i liked "Thomson" (i think) buzzing book as it had a CD so i could play the correct note. so i guess my next question should be what will help me to hear pitches in my head?
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Nick Mondello
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:09 pm    Post subject: Open Pedal C Reply with quote

One can also hold "open" the tuning slide water key to help "get" the pedal C to respond "open." Then, work toward not using that "crutch."

Lots of easy, full air.
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NiViBri
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andiroo wrote:
I tried the "softly softly" approach today, and i managed to get the C to play open . ....................so i guess my next question should be what will help me to hear pitches in my head?


Andiroo.
Glad to hear the "softly" approach worked for you!
To help with PITCH, I can suggest spending about $20.00 on a tuner. SOMETIMES it is a benfit to use more that ONE skill, together. By hearing AND seeing.........it can be "memorized" to your chops..
Also, to better help with tuner (and without) if you can pull the STEM from your Harmon, you can put your mouthpiece in it (like a small BELL) and "BUZZ" that way. It does provide an increase in sound and helps to "BLOW THROUGH" the pitch, for a feeling of projecting your sound!
Victor
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hornkid
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most everyone agrees there is some benefit to playing the pedal C open and many of the aforementioned suggestions are no doubt invaluable. However, I'm not sure that you should incorporate the open pedal C into your Stamp routine quite yet while you're struggling with it. I recently had several lessons with Tony Plog (who studied with Stamp) and according to him it makes no difference whether the pedal tones are fingured normally or just all 123 (as far as Stamp is concerned). You should play them whichever way "feels" the best. After you are able to get a comfortable open pedal C, maybe then you would incorporate it into your Stamp routine. Just a suggestion.
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mstrpt
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I recently had several lessons with Tony Plog (who studied with Stamp) and according to him it makes no difference whether the pedal tones are fingured normally or just all 123 (as far as Stamp is concerned). You should play them whichever way "feels" the best.


Yup, that's exactly what Mr. Stamp said to me (and Tony too)....Makes good sense....
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swingintrpt
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NiViBri wrote:


To help with PITCH, I can suggest spending about $20.00 on a tuner. SOMETIMES it is a benfit to use more that ONE skill, together. By hearing AND seeing.........it can be "memorized" to your chops..


I like to work with my tuner sounding a pitch. This REALLY helps to lock things in. Also, The Tuning CD is a great tool for similar training excercises.
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mcstock
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mstrpt wrote:
Quote:
I recently had several lessons with Tony Plog (who studied with Stamp) and according to him it makes no difference whether the pedal tones are fingured normally or just all 123 (as far as Stamp is concerned). You should play them whichever way "feels" the best.


Yup, that's exactly what Mr. Stamp said to me (and Tony too)....Makes good sense....


That's also what Bert Truax told me. I've posted my notes on his take on the Stamp routine at: http://www.geocities.com/mcstock.geo/stamp.html

Enjoy,

Matt
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Blake
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finger everything normally. If you can do it both ways great, but I don't lose my spot when I finger the notes normally. When I was first learning how to play pedal notes, I found that what helped was being able to HEAR the note very well, and using very fast air to break the plane between pedal Db and C.
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janet842
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcstock and mstrpt are right. Jimmy didn't care what fingerings you used to hit the pedal C.
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Sooner
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because a closed tube (which a trumpet is) will only produce odd numbered harmonics the mouthpiece and the bell both have been designed to compress these odd harmonics together in order to create the entire harmonic series.

The short answer is that the true pedal tone of a trumpet is low Gb and not the C below it. You can "force" the trumpet to play an open pedal C, but that is not a "natural" resonating frequency of the trumpet. Which is why it is so hard to play.

here is a good visual reference.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/music/brassa.html
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mpc
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedal Cs come easily on a flugelhorn. If you can get your hands on one, play some pedals on a flugel to get a feel for the harmonics in that register.

Also, I find it easier to play pedals on my C as opposed to my Bb.
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TheIrishBuddah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pedal C is a matter of "FEEL". Because the F. E. Eb. D.and Db come out so strong, we try and play the C the same way.

I agree with the statement, but in order to play the pedal "C" you have to both hear it an feel it. Ya it's great to know what to expect but if you don't know how it's going to sound then you can't possibly "FEEL" the note no matter how much you try. I have just played my first pedal "C" open back ok may 11th or so. It was a hard thing to accomplish, I spent many hours practicing playing the note on a piano and then moving from the "F#" down to the "C" chromaticlly. eventually it just clicked and now I don't even start my day with out playing the "C" and even lower now. Yesterday I hit a low "G" below that and it felt great.
The most important thing with pedal tones is hearing and feeling the note, with out those two things you will just be fighting for it with out any clear goal.

Best of luck with your pedals,

Ian
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