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Inferiority of monel valves


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oldlou
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:16 am    Post subject: Inferiority of monel valves Reply with quote

I am constantly amazed by many of the major musical instrument makers boasting about their valves being made of monel and, the buying public's gullibility in accepting these statements as truth. I have a lot of vintage horns. Those with nickel silver plated valves are all still air tight in the valve section, such as 4 different Getzens, a Martin Committee, several Olds, Reynolds, Roth, and German Bohm and Meinl. On these horns the valves are lightning fast, hold perfect compression and show no visual evidence of wear. Almost the same can be said of the copper plated valves in my collection, like early Holtons, Kings, etc.. When I am foolish enough to invest my hard earned cash in a horn with monel valves it almost always means that I will either get rid of the horn soon, use thick valve oil or,spend $350.00 with Anderson Silver Plating to get the valves rebuilt by plating with nickel silver.


How much longer will the buying public continue to invest thousands of dollars per unit for horns that 'could have' been made with nickel silver plated valves in the first place. I am of the opinion that the majority of the industry is working on a planned obsolescence scheme.


Now I will don my Nomex underwear to protect myself from the flames that are sure to follow my opinion.


OLDLOU>>
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Richard A
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not always sure exactly what the debate is

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Monel is a trademark comprising a series of rustless (stainless) metal alloys, primarily composed of nickel (up to 67%) and copper, with some iron and other trace elements. It is resistant to corrosion and acids, and some alloys can withstand a fire in pure oxygen. It is commonly used in applications with highly corrosive conditions. Small additions of aluminum and titanium form an alloy with the same corrosion resistance, but with very high strength.

It was created by Robert Crooks Stanley for INCO in 1901, and named for company president Ambrose Monell."

nickel silver

"Nickel silver is a metal alloy of copper with nickel and often but not always zinc. It is named for its silvery appearance, and contains no elemental silver. Other common names for this alloy are German Silver, Paktong, New Silver and Alpacca (or Alpaca)."

Composition

"There are many different formulations of alloys which fall within the general term of "Nickel Silver". All contain copper, nickel and zinc, while some formulations may additionally include antimony, tin, lead or cadmium. A representative industrial formulation (Alloy No.752) is 65% copper, 18% nickel, 17% zinc. In metallurgical science, such alloys would be more properly termed nickel bronze. "

So, to me at least, it's not clear exactly what the difference is.

Richard
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Wes Clarke
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou - why not just write your letter to the horn builders. I'm sure they'll change their ways.
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TheLawTalkingGuy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard A wrote:
I'm not always sure exactly what the debate is
...
Richard

Brett Getzen, in a TH post from last year, explained that the difference has less to do with the composition than the results after application of the substances to the valve surfaces:

Getzen wrote:
"In its raw form, monel is very hard and resistant to corrosion; however, it is very susceptible to the effects of annealing. That is, the metal undergoes a physical change when it is exposed to high temperatures - high temperatures like those used to braze in piston liners. The result is a piston with both hard and soft areas. This causes the piston to wear unevenly and to corrode more quickly in these annealed areas. In the long run, this condition leads to an inferior piston.

On the other hand, nickel silver does not anneal in the same way as monel. Therefore, the entire surface of the piston remains hard even after the brazing process. That alone makes our pistons superior, but we don't stop there. All of our nickel pistons are also nickel plated. This layer of nickel silver plating accomplishes two things. First, it further guarantees a uniform surface hardness on the piston. Second, nickel plating is much more dense molecularly than nickel silver tubing. This denseness makes the piston's surface not only harder, but also more lubricious. That is, the surface is much smoother than raw nickel. In plain English, it feels wet even when dry. Adding together an extremely smooth finish and a hardened surface gives Getzen pistons the lightening fast and long lasting action that we are famous for."


The entire post is here: http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33221&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=monel+anneal&start=0

Anyway, that's one explanation. My repair guy, a former (huge) fan of Monel (his store is a dealer for Bach and Yamaha, but not Getzen!) has said that I have now convinced him of the superiority of nickel valves, from the series of great old (mostly Olds!) horns with great 40-50 year old valves I have brought him over the past few years.

John
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion took place some time back when Mr. Getzen ran a test of monel vs nickel plated valves in a non-lubricated session in which the nickel plated Getzen valves endured beyond the monel valves of a competitor.

It would seem to me that there are various alloys of monel as the valves on all of my Schilke trumpets (7 horns) rarely cause problems and do not stain as do the valves on my Bach horns (3) which generally have spots of yellowish-brown that will impede the action and must be removed with Wenol or Flitz. Both Bach and Schilke advertise monel valves but the Schilke process has proven (to me) over the years since 1969 to be superior to that of Bach. This is not to say the Schilke horns, nor their sound, is superior to Bach, only that the monel alloy seems to be with the chemestry of my own body. I have noticed the same yellow-brown stain on the Bach trumpets of other people, as well as similar instances on Benge trumpets.

In any event, I believe Getzen uses a non-plated nickel alloy valve rather than a nickel plated valve. I can hardly believe any plated surface would, over time, be superior to a solid alloy if the part was made to operate continuously in a moving pattern over a short but constant position as are trumpet valves. No auto manufacturer would consider using plated engine pistons, which, essentially operate in a similar manner as brass instrument pistons.
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Tootsall
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig... I'll bet you use either Al Cass oil or perhaps another one of those whose main ingredient is parafin. I had an identical problem of staining but it also happened on the valves of my Getzen cornet. Since I switched oils to synthetics the problem has disappeared.
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oldlou
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:26 am    Post subject: Trumpet valves vs auto engine pistons Reply with quote

Per the contention that auto manufacturers would not use plating on their pistons; the piston never contacts the bore, or very lightly on the piston skirt. The actual wear surface is most often plated. This is the piston ring set near the head of the piston, which is usually plated with chromium. In the case of many small internal combustion engines made of aluminum, the bore is what is plated with chromium to drastically reduce wear and extend service life. Because the pistons in an internal combustion engine run at much higher cyclic frequency, and at vastly higher temperatures than are found in the valve engine of any valved brass musical instrument different metallurgy is required. What works in one application does not nessecarily work in another, given the great differences in operating speed and temperature.


The contention that I make is that 'most' musical instrument manufacturers are building to a price, not to a high quality and service life standard. In my original posting on this subject I made the claim that in my opinion, the makers were playing a form of planned obsolesence. The only cure for this is, as I stated, either replacement of the instrument, or, to have the valves plated back up to a proper fit in the bores.


OLDLOU>>
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Bach Stradivarius (monel valves) needs oiling less often than all of my Getzen horns. Go figure.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, oldlou, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Second, we do indeed use nickel plated, nickel silver tubing for our valves. The result is a very strong bond between the two metals. That is why our plated valves are indeed superior.

If you want to read more about my above mentioned test go to http://www.getzen.com/gazette/mar2006.shtml and scroll down to the nickel vs. monel article. I would say those results speak for themselves.

Here's a preview of the results. The first is a monel valve after only a little over 100,000 strokes. The second is one of our nickel valves after over 1,000,000 strokes under the same conditions.

Brett Getzen




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oldlou
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:45 am    Post subject: Monel vs nickel silver plate Reply with quote

Mark; the probable reason for your monel valves needing less oiling is that the surface micro haze holds more oil than the super slick surface of the plated valves. Have you ever had a chance to play with a set of guage blocks? they are honed to a super fine finish and flatness. It is almost impossible to move one block when pressed against the other, unless a bearing surface of oil or water is intrduced between the two. The problem with this is that that bearing surface soon squeezes out, with no imperfections in the surfaces to retain any oil or water. The blocks then will stick together. Normal lapping of musical instrument valves is done with either white or red rouge as a micro abrasive, thus leaving a very fine haze on the surface. If the valves are too shiny they will not retain any lubricant.


OLDLOU>>
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oldlou
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:03 am    Post subject: Message to Mr. Getzen Reply with quote

Thank you for your comments per my posting about monel vs nickel silver plated valves. The problem is that you are preaching to the choir. I am preconvinced. As a retired automotive engineer with Chrysler Corp. and a world class rifle competitor, the lubricity of various alloys used as platings, jacketing, and in cast bullets, the alloying of the metals used in the casting of the bullets has been a lifelong quest for the very best.


Chrysler taught me that "commercial acceptability" will always enhance sales, current and future. This boils down to a good or a bad reputation with the buying public. Most major makers feel that they have such a strangle hold on the market, with their multi brands all under one corporate umbrella that they have no need to maintain an acceptable quality level. They KNOW how much it costs to rebuild a set of valves, and the time away from the horn for most musicians, which causes the musician to seriously entertain the notion of replacement, rather than rebuild. My personal prayer for you is that you will be able to retain your high quality, warranty, and still stay in business in competition with others that are sending their manufacturing overseas to third world countries.


OLDLOU>>
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oneeyedhobbit
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never been fortunate enough to own a horn with Nickel plated valves (despite my grievances with Monel, the sounds I like have always come from horns using monel), but I agree whole-heartedly, except for the planned obsolescence bit. Assuming one doesn't replace the entire trumpet when a valve goes bad, the instrument manufacturer doesn't stand to profit, but rather the repairmen.
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a long time I thought Monel was a superior valve. I guess I bought into the marketing hype. In the last couple of years my students have been using Jupiter student horns. They have incredible blowing characteristics, but real valve problems. They had monel pistons. Jupiter sent me replacement nickel plated pistons and so far, no more problems. I give the Jupiter Co. a lot of credit for admitting the problem and providing a solution. A couple of other major brand companies have had similar problems and insist that it is the student's fault.

My Eclipse has stainless steel valves. I've only had it a year, but they work great. They do need a little more oiling. I wonder how the longevity is for stainless valves.
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting discussion. Have any manufacturers experimented with ceramics, like in race car engines?

Kent
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7cw
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..

Last edited by 7cw on Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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TheIrishBuddah
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

when did trumpet manufactuers (sp) start using Monel valves over Nickel Silver?
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Richard A
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheIrishBuddah wrote:
when did trumpet manufactuers (sp) start using Monel valves over Nickel Silver?


Monel has been around since 1901. Bach, at least, has been using Monel for as long as I remember (1967).

The main point of my earlier post was that Monel is a trademark, not a specific alloy. Likewise, Nickel Silver is the name applied to a family of alloys, not a single, unique alloy.

Richard
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Accordion Ron
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that years ago, all trumpet had highly polished valves. Then they started talking about Monel, and they were frosted looking and not polished. They were supposed to hold oil better.
My experience is with an LA Benge with frosted valves. It must be oiled everytime you play it, or they feel sticky.
And my new Lawler with polished valves, that plays great oil or no oil. But I have gotten into the habit of applying oil anyway. (Hetman's)
So, it seems that the Getzen Valves on the Lawler are superior. Far superior !!!
Ron
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about those old chrome plated King valves......

Nothing is harder than chrome.


Chris
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tptptp
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valve-shmalve. My Getzen valves work great, and my Bach valves work great. It's my playing that ain't great, not my valves.
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