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Inferiority of monel valves


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disabledaccount
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff Fitch wrote:
As long as they dont give me any trouble, I could care less what they are made out of.


I agree with this guy.

I am only a player, and as a player, I can only speak from experience, not mechanics. I would say that the large majority of musicians around here would just rather have great valves; it isn't as necessary for the common trumpet player to know the exact mechanical, chemical, or alloy-related reasons why his or her valves are amazing or craptacular...it's about the valves just being good or not.

Now, in my experience, I have played MF Horns, Bach Strads, Bach student trumpets, Yamaha Xenos, Yamaha Bobby Shew Horns (both models), Yamaha student trumpets,Yamaha flugels, Leblanc flugels, Schilkes (C and picc.), Conn trumpets, a few Getzens, Olds trumpets and flugelhorns, Jupiters, King Silver Flairs, Blessings, Benges, and even a custom Harrelson.

Of ALL of those listed above, the Getzen valves have proven to be the fastest, most efficient, and overall best valves I have ever used. I still have an old Getzen that I have since moved on from, and it can go weeks without any oil at all; however, my MF Horn requires frequent oiling (at least once a week), but I just prefer its playing characteristics, so I sacrifice valve performance.

Based on that, I would say that nickel silver valves provide the best performance, and Monel valves are inferior. Either that, or Getzen valves are just plain amazing.

Whatever the case, I give mad props to Getzen for making the best valves out there and excellent horns.

-Hadrian
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7cw
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..

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swordfishtrombone
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes Clarke wrote:
Lou - why not just write your letter to the horn builders. I'm sure they'll change their ways.

Yeah, right!... Bottom line, it's all about cost effectiveness.
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swordfishtrombone
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tootsall wrote:
Craig... I'll bet you use either Al Cass oil or perhaps another one of those whose main ingredient is parafin. I had an identical problem of staining but it also happened on the valves of my Getzen cornet. Since I switched oils to synthetics the problem has disappeared.

Tootsall- Good point. The Monel pistons in some of my horns work best with either Ultra Pure or Hetman's #1. Plus I dope my lubes up a bit with Ferree's Monel additive. Don't know what's in it, but it does smell a bit like alcohol, and it does appear to "self clean". Who knows?
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swordfishtrombone
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

7cw wrote:
I just checked the nickel plated valves on 6 Olds Ambassador trumpets. 3 of them had fairly bad pitting, or loss of plating on the pistons. My experience with vintage Martin Committee valves is about the same... around 50% have worn through the plating on the valves. Other older horns like 70s Getzen Severinsen Models probably have a have a much higher percentage of plating problems. Personally, I think the development of a high quality Monel piston like on Schilke trumpets (or Bach) is probably the single biggest improvement in trumpet manufacture in this Century! The development of a cheap, junky Monel piston (like on some Jupiter of Yamaha student horns) is probably one of the worst developments. But, don't confuse a cheap student line Monel piston, with the kind of piston in a Schilke trumpet! I recently went into a music store and compared the valves on a new Getzen and Schilke. I figured the Getzen was the best example of what is possible with a plated piston, and the Schilke the best example of a Monel piston. I oiled the valves and then removed the 2nd valve slide to check the compression. It was not even close... the Monel had MUCH better compression. Personally, I also like the smooth feel of Monel pistons over the glassy, bouncy feel of Nickel plated pistons. If Getzen wants to make quality plated pistons, and their customers are happy with them, that is great... but I really think that what Getzen has been doing (largely on the TH) is more of a propaganda campaign against Monel valves. What scares me is when people start saying that you should "let the manufacturers know that Nickel is better" and basically demand Monel. It would be a real shame if some day Schilke were bullied into switching to plated valves because "the people want it". Does Bach and Schilke need to hire a staff of people that just watch the internet forums, and defend their products?

This is not a reliable test. You really need to pressurize the horn and do a leak down percentage test to get anywhere near decent results- just as we do in high performance racing engines.
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swordfishtrombone
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard A wrote:

The main point of my earlier post was that Monel is a trademark, not a specific alloy. Likewise, Nickel Silver is the name applied to a family of alloys, not a single, unique alloy.

Richard


Like all alloys, Monel can be tweaked to fit a particular situaton.
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swordfishtrombone
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptptp wrote:
Valve-shmalve. My Getzen valves work great, and my Bach valves work great. It's my playing that ain't great, not my valves.

Way Cool, Craig!....Thanx for the honesty!
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swordfishtrombone
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
This debate over piston material and finish is only half the equation when it comes to valve action. No one here has mentioned the valve casings. How they are processed and sized contribute to good or bad valve action.

Does the manufacturer predispose the brass casings to etching through excessive pickling?
Chemical deleading is a common practice by large manufacturers and predisposes brass to accelerated corrosion.

Are the casing inner dimensions held to a consistent tolerance?
A famous French manufacturer's valve casing dimensions are often "all over the map".
Student step up models that offer Monel pistons are often poorly fit with too much clearance to be reliable.

Most importantly, does the operator maintain lubrication?
By the time most instruments arrive in our shop with valve problems they are badly corroded. Oil serves two purposes, lubrication AND protection against corrosion. With deposits of "green crud" or copper carbonate the zinc will be leached out of the brass alloy and copper carbonate acts an an abrasive to accelerate wear of moving parts.

Having measured Bach valves before rebuilding, rarely if ever does the Monel piston show signs of wear. The dimensions have not changed rather, the casing have worn out. When maintained, a new trumpet valve should last 10 to 15 years before any major work is needed. However, if you fail to maintain your valves you will be looking at a valve rebuild much sooner.

How many of you would expect your vehicle's engine to make it to over 200,000 miles without diligent attention to lubrication and maintenance. And how many of you still drive a car for ten, twenty or more years?


Jim Becker
Brass Repair Technician
Osmun Music Inc.

VERY good insight, Mr. James Becker!
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7cw
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..

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swordfishtrombone
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

7cw wrote:

Do whatever test you want. Take a new Getzen and a new Schilke with valves oiled.

As far as manufacturers using Monel because it is cheaper... that may be true on student horns with cheap Monel valves, but if you compared the expense of a Getzen Valve section versus the expense to produce a Schilke valve section, the Schilke is more expensive (materials and labor).

I sold my X3. And to say that Schilke valves cost more than Getzen?....
I say- "No way, Jose!". Unless Schilke pays their valve dudes $50/ hr.!
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disabledaccount
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Mangione,
You have played quite a few different horns for a high school kid... I am impressed. Are ideas like long term durability, and air compression (not leaking) even on your radar screen? Or do valves just have to be "fast" and not need oil?


Well you bring up a good point there...I didn't mention long term durability and air compression, so I'll go for that now.

As far as long term, I can't say such much at all, mainly because I haven't played anything for what most of us would consider long term, just a few years per horn at most; however, to compare the current extension of time between a Getzen and my Bach and Holton, the Getzen valves are unstained, last longer without the necessity to oil, and have never lost a lick of speed. The Bach valves are pretty decent, but have stained the worst of my three horns over time, and they also require the most frequent oiling (I've used it in the past for marching band, and it would need to be oiled every few days). The Holton has minute staining only on one valve (it is the newest of my horns), the speed has actually gotten better with time (is still not as good as the Getzen's), and the valves can generally go about a week before I need to reapply oil. Over time, my Getzen has had the least valve problems (although the others have been so much worse...someone sat on the leadpipe and destroyed it, and I accidentally jammed a waterkey), and my newer and older instruments with monel valves have had more frequent problems and require more negative attention.

Leaking? From what I see, this doesn't have very much to do with the valve plating or material. Generally, all of the horns I come in contact with are monel valves, and some horns have had bad compression, while some have had excellent compression. I can't really make a statement on this here.

Conclusions:
-The nickel silver plated (now abbreviated TNSP) valves require less frequent oiling
-TNSP valves do not stain or corrode nearly as fast as monel valves
-TNSP valves have been noticably faster than monel valves
-TNSP valves overall seem to last longer without losing any traits or gaining any problems

I would also like to note that my Getzen is only an "intermediate" horn that I purchased a while ago for a simple $700. My other horn experiences have been with many horns of much higher quality, but they have all still been inferior as far as valve action.
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB

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swordfishtrombone
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbacon wrote:
"Leaking? From what I see, this doesn't have very much to do with the valve plating or material."

When does band camp start?


Yo!...Take it easy on the kid, aight?...By the way, how's the weather?
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swordfishtrombone wrote:
dbacon wrote:
"Leaking? From what I see, this doesn't have very much to do with the valve plating or material."

When does band camp start?


Yo!...Take it easy on the kid, aight?...By the way, how's the weather?


Been below normal temps, nice for the outdoor gigs....gonna warm up a bit this week..
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disabledaccount
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbacon wrote:
"Leaking? From what I see, this doesn't have very much to do with the valve plating or material."

When does band camp start?


"From what I see" does not equate to "from what I positively know."
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mangione665 wrote:
dbacon wrote:
"Leaking? From what I see, this doesn't have very much to do with the valve plating or material."

When does band camp start?


"From what I see" does not equate to "from what I positively know."


Cool!
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leaking? From what I see, this doesn't have very much to do with the valve plating or material.

You are correct. Leaking has everything to do with WEAR! And your going to get closer to leaky valves the longer you go without oiling! See how long you can drive your car on an empty crank case of oil! GOOD LUCK!

Jim Becker
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cleanhead77 wrote:
What about older Conn "crysteel" valves? Anyone know what they were made of?

I believe Conn "Crysteel" valves are stainless steel.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to know where the cost of a Schilke valve compared to the cost of our valves is printed online that anyone could find. We have built both nickel silver, nickel plated pistons and monel pistons. I know for a fact that our nickel pistons take more time and cost quite a bit more to produce than monel. Just the cost of properly maintaining the nickel plating tanks accomplishes that. And we weren't build monel pistons for some cheapo horn. We were building them for a guy name....umm.... Monette. I think some of you may have heard of him.

Brett Getzen
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to know where the cost of a Schilke vale compared to the cost of our valves is printed online that anyone could find. We have built both nickel silver, nickel plated pistons and monel pistons. I know for a fact that our nickel pistons take more time and cost quite a bit more to produce than monel. And we weren't build monel pistons for some cheapo horn. We were building them for a guy name....umm.... Monette. I think some of you may have heard of him.

Brett Getzen
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