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Inferiority of monel valves


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7cw
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Wes Clarke
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Brett Getzen's post indicated that they began covering horns from the time the Getzen family reacquired the company. He indicated that the prior owner's work was what they could not afford to cover. Maybe the drop in quality (and a desire to turn it around) is one reason they wanted to reacquire the company.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I wasn't talking about the fitting, honing, and lapping costs. Those are done on either piston and are basically the same. I was speaking strictly of the manufacturing costs. While monel tubing is more expensive than nickel silver, the addition steps involved with a plated piston add a significant amount of cost. Basically, the steps needed to build a monel piston would only get you about half way through a plated piston. Trust me, we have built them both I know what I am talking about. Have you ever built pistons? Where are you getting your cost information?

As for Monette's choice to use monel, that is his own philosophy. I could say the same thing about Roy Lawler using nickel. And what about Doc? Do you think it is just a coincedence that the more expensive and supposedly better Destino has nickel plated pistons?

In regards to the warranty only gonig back fifteen years what do you expect? There is a reason the company went bancrupt under the management at the time. Manufacturing quality slipped significantly with many things being passed on that would never make standards today. Why would we cover obviously inferior products not built to our standards? Keep in mind that there is a huge difference between the Getzen Company of today and the Getzen Company of the mid to late eighties.

Brett Getzen
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swordfishtrombone
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
Leaking? From what I see, this doesn't have very much to do with the valve plating or material.

You are correct. Leaking has everything to do with WEAR! And your going to get closer to leaky valves the longer you go without oiling! See how long you can drive your car on an empty crank case of oil! GOOD LUCK!

Jim Becker


OOOHH, YEAH!!!!...Anymore amateur "rocket scientists" out there for Mr. Becker to take a shot at?
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I could "drive" a Getzen 390 with little to no oil for over 1,000,000 strokes and it only lost .0526 lbs of air. Meanwhile, monel pistons with the same amount of oil lost .1579 lbs of air in only 128,800 strokes.

Oil is a key factor in the life of any piston. However, initial build quality is just as, if not more important.

Brett Getzen
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7cw
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Getzen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Ahh the internet is great isn't it.

First off, Becker mentioned the hardening of alloys as it pertained to valve casings. I found that interesting because the alloys listed didn't seem to match up with common alloys used for valve casings. That has nothing to do with Schilke bells. Which by the way are not made out of berillyum bronze at all, but we won't get into that.

Second, what is the material that Schilke uses for their valve casings? It is a red\gold brass alloy unlike the yellow brass used by most manufacturers. Now, incase you didn't know, red\gold brass is softer than yellow brass. It is a common theory among several repairmen and manufacturers that this is the reason Schilke monel valves operate so well. They are using soft monel against softer brass. Doing this eleviates some of the wearing problems faced by other users of monel. Having a softer casing lessens the effect of soft spots on the monel.

Third, we did not build a cheap monel valve. I think if they were good enough for Monette they would be good enough for everyone else. The specs and tolerances on the monel valves matched ours exactly. I think Dave and players of his trumpets would take offense to the reference that his valve sections were cheap.

You are right that nobody knows for sure how long our valves will last. Although, you'd think the fact that we are backing them up with a LIFETIME warranty would show just how sure of ourselves we are. What does Schilke offer in terms of a warranty? As far as the plating costs go, I wasn't referring to that as a sign of quality. However, anyone that knows anything about plating will tell you the costs associated with such activities are extremely high. If we didn't have to nickel plate our pistons we would save a fortune in terms of the costs associated with running, maintaining and safely disposing of plating solutions and materials. Oh, and we have been nickel plating valves for well over 15 years. Have you ever heard of Allied Music? It is almost a given from repairmen that the best way to fix a monel piston is to nickel plate it. Ask around.

I would still like to know where you get your information in regards to Schilke monel pistons. I have based my opinion on actual facts and personal experience. Just making a statement without anything to back it up is not an arguement. It's just talking.

Does Schilke build quality monel valves? Yes, yes they do. However, they are cheaper. That's just a fact. I have discussed this topic with people who currently or previous have worked for and with Bach, Conn, Martin, LeBlanc, Kanstul, and Straub to name a few. They pretty much had the same things to say.

We could settle this arguement really easily. I still have my piston machine set up and ready to go. If anyone wants to donate a brand new Schilke I will put it up against anyone of our horns and we can see which performs better and lasts longer. Heck, I'd even through the 390 student horn with over a 1,000,000 strokes into the mix. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind who would win that battle. In fact, right now I am preparing to run a Bauerfiend valve set. I could squeeze the Schilke in there too.

Brett Getzen
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I'd be willing to test any Getzen you want to send me. When I get to a million strokes, I'll send it back.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Well I would do that, but I think you would have a hard time counting as you were playing. How can I be sure your count is accurate?

Brett Getzen
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heavy valve caps with, uh...CLICKERS! Yeah, that's the ticket!
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

7cw wrote:
...Someone like Mr. Schilke was continually searching for the best available regardless of dificulty or cost, I don't think he would pick something he thought was inferior because it is cheaper (which it was'nt).


Of course. That's why Ren Schilke went forward with the Yamalloy valves on his horns in the 70's (let's see...oh yeah! that was less than 50 years ago). That was, arguably, the biggest disaster in the history of brass valve making. I don't remember Schilke replacing any of those valve sections under any sort of "guarantee".

So then, I suppose you're going to tell us that Schilke outsourced his valves to Yamaha in Japan because it was, what, more expensive?

Quote:
I really don't enjoy arguing about things...


Then why do you do it? Just stop. If you send as much hot air through your trumpet as you deposit on this forum, you should be the best player in the world.
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is starting to get ridiculous.
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7cw
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Trumpeter58
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:


Well I would do that, but I think you would have a hard time counting as you were playing. How can I be sure your count is accurate?

Brett Getzen


By much the same token, considering the virtual impossibility of keeping even a reasonably accurate count, how do you know the 390 student horn you mention throwing into the mix actually has at least 1,000,000 strokes on the valves?
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Tom LeCompte
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
What does Schilke offer in terms of a warranty?


This limited lifetime warranty certifies that the above mentioned Schilke instrument is guaranteed against defects and workmanship under normal wear conditions.

We cannot assume responsibility for finish deterioration of withe gold or silver due to normal wear or damage resulting from abuse.

And for completeness, here is the Getzen warranty:

The Getzen Platinum Warranty covers all Custom Series models. The Platinum Warranty offers the standard Getzen lifetime guarantee against defects in workmanship and materials on valves. However, it also carries a lifetime guarantee against defects in workmanship and materials on all other parts of the instrument.

The Getzen Company guarantees the pistons in all of its instruments to be free of defects in workmanship and materials for the life of the instrument. Should any piston defects occur, the Getzen Company will repair or replace the piston.
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2ndchair
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read with much interest and some humor about the poor quality of Schilkes "Yamaloy" valves. As far as I can tell the vast majority of those opinions are based on what has been read on these pages rather than any personal experience. Like all the guys who "know" that UMI Benges are no good without ever playing one, but that's another topic.

From first hand experience including a B1 I owned for many years which is still being played daily by a friend here in town. The Yamaha supplied valves Schilke used work and hold up well if kept clean and properly lubricated.

Any piston can wear out, some more quickly than others. As a devoted accumulator (my wifes word, I think I am a horn collector!) of many brands and models of trumpets I know first hand that there is no significant difference in Monel vs. played pistons in terms of longevity.

At present I play two Getzen Eternas with nickel plated pistons, a Calicchio a Bel Canto and a Bach with monel parts, a Schilke P5-4 with monel, a Benge with monel and one with Anderson plated valves (a previous owner thought some Lave soap would make them faster....) a brand new Lawler model B with some amazingly well made plated valves (much thanks to the folks at Getzen!) several Conn trumpets from the 20's and 30's with exceptional action a Conn 8B and a Connstellation cornet with "crysteel" pistons and an Olds flugelhorn in monel. In general the monel pumps feel "smoother" to my hand and the nickel plated valves are quick but "slippery". (too many horns? Nah!) My theory is that you can get used to anything with an open mind and since I like certain things about each of these horns I just adapt.

My impression of the Getzen nickel valves is that they are fast and very quiet. The Calicchio monel valves are very quick, but in all fairness I have spent several hours setting them up properly. The Bach made in the late 60's has a fast smooth valve set that has never let me down.

In my shop the most common cause of piston failure is certainly poor storage and lack of maintenance. I recently had a set of Getzen valves replated due to severe corrosion. The owner put the horn away after high school and it didn't see the light of day for over 20 years. The Getzen company is certainly not responsible for his lack of care.

In my opinion as a long time player and professional repair technician monel is in no way inferior as a piston material unless the parent metal is of poor quality. I have seen horns from here as well as overseas with pistons less than a year old that were ready for the scrap heap. Some with monel or some white metal and some with a remarkably bad nickel plating job over what must be reprocessed dog food cans.

Please don't pick or condemn a horn because of it's piston material. If the instrument is of good quality and you like the way it sounds enjoy yourself.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, so Ren tried to do something to cheapen his horns? I though he would never do that.

I'm going sum up my stance on this with this: You can build a low quality nickel plated piston just like you can build a high quality monel piston. However, the simple physics of the matter dictate that a high quality nickel piston is superior to a high quality monel piston. Don't believe me? I have the hardness test results to proove it. Nickel doesn't anneal like monel. Nickel plate is denser, harder, and more lubricious. When placed over nickel tubing, the bond between the two layers is much stronger than the bond between nickel plate and monel (as seen on the Destino). As I was told by a former employee of LeBlanc, monel is not the perfect piston material, but it's good enough. Who wants to settle for good enough?

Brett Getzen

ps Higher copper content does make brass alloys more corrosion resistant. However, this does not mean more durable since the higher the copper content the softer the metal is. Soft does not equal durable.
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regularsopguy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: Inferiority of monel valves Reply with quote

oldlou wrote:
I am constantly amazed by many of the major musical instrument makers boasting about their valves being made of monel and, the buying public's gullibility in accepting these statements as truth. I have a lot of vintage horns. Those with nickel silver plated valves are all still air tight in the valve section, such as 4 different Getzens, a Martin Committee, several Olds, Reynolds, Roth, and German Bohm and Meinl. On these horns the valves are lightning fast, hold perfect compression and show no visual evidence of wear. Almost the same can be said of the copper plated valves in my collection, like early Holtons, Kings, etc.. When I am foolish enough to invest my hard earned cash in a horn with monel valves it almost always means that I will either get rid of the horn soon, use thick valve oil or,spend $350.00 with Anderson Silver Plating to get the valves rebuilt by plating with nickel silver.


How much longer will the buying public continue to invest thousands of dollars per unit for horns that 'could have' been made with nickel silver plated valves in the first place. I am of the opinion that the majority of the industry is working on a planned obsolescence scheme.


Now I will don my Nomex underwear to protect myself from the flames that are sure to follow my opinion.


OLDLOU>>


Not sure what you are trying to start here, but you'll find tons of support on both sides - and bashers too.

fact is that prbably 95% of all pistons are monel and the other 5% are nickel, but I have horns with both and both are good, probably equal.

Instead of asking "how much longer?", you should be asking "who cares?"
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: Inferiority of monel valves Reply with quote

oldlou wrote:
When I am foolish enough to invest my hard earned cash in a horn with monel valves it almost always means that I will either get rid of the horn soon, use thick valve oil or,spend $350.00 with Anderson Silver Plating to get the valves rebuilt by plating with nickel silver.

As long as we're presenting anecdotal evidence, I have a mid 70's Bach Strad with monel valves that I've played the stew out of the last 20 years. I oil the valves regularly, and they're still in fine shape. Maybe nickel valves hold up better under abuse, but when a horn is maintained correctly, I believe any properly-manufactured valve assembly will last for many years.

Now if you're discussing the purchase of an old, abused horn, the nickel valved ones may be a lower risk of needing a valve job. If you're buying new though, I wouldn't let monel bother me.
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7cw
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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