Trp Players that improvise..

[Lazarus]

Mr. Turner,

Thanks for the thoughtful and enligtening words. I'm glad the lead part is not too high right now in our arrangements. My upper-register is alright, but if I were to go out in the real world, I'd be stuffed. I'll keep blowing and working on it! In the mean time, listening to other wise and experienced players help me feel the rythm and sets my sites for ideas in imrov. Where do you do gigs at? Do you have any recordings out or anything? I'd love to be able to hear you some day, as I am doing well in the 'school world' of music but know that I'm defficient if I were to ever go the 'real world' and rub elbows with the bigs guys. I want to be ready for it if the time comes. In the mean time I'm going to start working in a music shop helping prep instruments for repair. Thanks! Give me an e-mail if you'd like! See ya!
_________________
God Bless,
Stephen O.
_________

Bb Trumpet - Kanstul 1500A
Cornet- 1939 King Master
_________

[tom turner]

Hi Rich,

Welcome to the "friendly forum!" I too am glad you are posting here. It will be a real plus for trumpeters!

I went to your website and listened to your recordings . . . nice! You've definately honed your craft and it looks like you've got some interesting duets too! Nice story on playin' with Maynard too.

BTW, I also went to the U.S. Nasal Pool of Mucus in Little Creek in '72 as an Army bandsman . . . though that summer my '66 Mustang fastback was often seen over in Virginia Beach. Lots of fun (except for stripping those darn floors in the housing unit every week!). I heard the Navy had to re-tile the floors over there around '74 or so . . . the tile had so worn down from the excessive stripping, buffing and re-polishing.

Warmest regards,

Tom Turner

[Lazarus]

[mistrad37]

Great topic, and some really great posts. Now I think that I will take my turn. Often, I play the 3rd book and Jazz chair. Lead is just not my thing anymore. I have found that if I am playing 3rd and listening up to the lead it can sometimes be more difficult than soloing! Here is my reasoning: When a section player plays up to a lead he must have the discipline to push aside his own style and mimic the style of the lead player. In a way, this makes the section player a fantastic player. If the player travels around and plays up to different leads he is going to pick up some styles from each lead player. Then he will have his own sound that has bits and pieces of all of the lead players that he or she has played with. Then, if they hit the solo book they have a unique sound that doesn't stray far from the section. If you play in a big band you want the solo to sound different than if you were playing in a combo. Each section player must make sure that they do not mimic the lead player all of the time. If this happens then the player will not develop his or her own sound. This exact problem happened to Miles Davis. When Miles was traveling and learning from Dizzy in the NYC area he couldn't grasp his own sound. He fell in the wannabe bin and it took a while for him to discover his own sound. However, Miles made a wonderful section player also. I have been on both sides of the lead (no pun intended!) and have found that both present their own challenges to the trumpet player. Each of these players must have discipline and be a swell musician to say the least.

[gappingr]

I'd like to make a post here as a non-improvisor. I did some jazz playing in high school and college, and even took some jazz/improv lessons for a year in LA. However, despite my enjoyment of the music, I was just not able to really get the hang of improvising. I could hear the chord progression and I could follow the line, but rarely if ever, could I truly "create" a solo. By create, I mean to literally invent (improvise) something new and expressive within the framework of the chord progression. I do not consider "variations on a theme" where a person simply plays the melody with extra embellishments, improvising.

I attribute my lack of improvisational ability to genetics. Some people are naturally blessed with creativity and an ability to express themselves. These people write books, poetry, musical compositions, and improvise solos. Others of us are born with a love for expression and we make excellent readers, listeners, and performers of other people's works. My ability to play and/or enjoy music of any kind is not inhibited by my lack of ability to improvise something new around or on top of the framework someone else wrote. If this means I will never be a "real" trumpeter, I beg to differ. I'm just a different kind of trumpeter.

Rob
_________________
Rob Gappinger

One needs only two tools: WD40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and should, use WD40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the tape.

[Nicholas Dyson]

Rob Gappinger:
You can't improvise due to genetics? I don't want this to sound crass, but that is a cop out. One year of study in LA on improvisation does not a jazzer make...

Improvisation is constant growth. If you don't use it, you lose it. If you don't push yourself, your playing becomes stagnant. Perhaps not to your listeners straight away, but in your own "ear".

Rob wrote:
""By create, I mean to literally invent (improvise) something new and expressive within the framework of the chord progression.""

You've seen a french movie? Okay, pick up your phone, hit redial and immediately start speaking french to whoever answers. Can't speak french? Why not? You've heard it before.

It's the same deal with improvisation. You have to learn the language. I'm sure everyone would agree that there are a ton of different dialects to deal with also. Not geographically decided dialects, but instead based on peoples desires and passions.

Rob, if you don't improvise, that's fine. There is not a shred of reason why you should if you don't feel the need. However, I would suggest that you re-evaluate your logic and realize that the only reason you can't improvise is because you don't want to. Not a thing wrong with that. Maybe you want to a little, but not enough to put the work in...

PS. Please, please, please, don't take this the wrong way. Although I'm passionate about music, and improvising, I don't mean to sound mean or belittling. Anyone who plays music is alright in my book, even accordian players. I just can't let the "genetic" argument get out there and fester. Jazz is a dying art as it is.

Anyone elses thoughts??????

Nick
_________________
Nicholas Dyson
Ottawa, Canada

[trickg]

Eric,

Wow, what a subject. I guess that I would be an embarrassment to you because the one thing that I have always struggled with is my ability to improvise and take a ride. I've done it but there really isn't anything inspiring about the rides that I have taken.

I don't really have the consistent range to be a lead player. My practice room G just doesn't cut it when all I can seem to eke out on the gig is an Eb or E. I don't like to improvise because I am a perfectionist and I have a hard time creating on the fly so I would rather leave it to those that do it better than I do.

However, here is what I do well: I am a great section player. In a big band I prefer 3rd or 4th book and when I was playing Latin Band, I preferred the 2nd book although I did take lead on about 1/5th of the material we had. I am a great support player. I know the tricks to make the lead player sound good and to make his job easier. If you've ever played lead to a bad second, you know how tough it can be. On the flip side, if you've played lead to a great second, they make the job much easier.

Be ashamed of me if you want, but I'm content to know that I'm a great section player and when I clam big, it's not out there for the whole world to hear.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[trickg]

Just a quick note to Rob.

I don't know if it's lack of talent or lack of creativity, but there may be something to what you call the "genetics cop out".

I am great at expressing a line on the page, but I'm awful at creating on the fly. Maybe it's because I just haven't done it enough to get the hang of it or maybe I just don't have it. (I can vocally improv, maybe I just don't know my scales well enough)

In any event, I'm not comfortable doing it, I don't enjoy it while I'm doing it and I'm rarely happy with what has come out of my horn when it is all said and done. For me, it is better to let those who like to do it and do it better than me have at it while I back them up on a supporting part.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[gappingr]

[quote]
On 2002-01-15 11:38, Nicholas Dyson wrote:
You've seen a french movie? Okay, pick up your phone, hit redial and immediately start speaking french to whoever answers. Can't speak french? Why not? You've heard it before.

It's the same deal with improvisation. You have to learn the language. I'm sure everyone would agree that there are a ton of different dialects to deal with also. Not geographically decided dialects, but instead based on peoples desires and passions.

Nick,
I have to say that I think learning a language is not the same as creating something new musically. One can learn lots of licks (words) that other jazzers have played, and put them together in a new order (sentences) and call it improvisation. However, I'm referring to the creative process of making something completely new that is entirely based on my own emotions or desires within the solo. This would be the equivalent of inventing my own language. The letters (notes) might be the same as in English or French, but the phrases (words) are entirely new.

Maybe I'm being too picky in what I perceive to be improvisation. If putting other people's licks together in a different order or key is improv, then I guess you're right, anyone can learn to do it. But if it means creating something entirely new...then I still say genetics plays a role.

Rob
_________________
Rob Gappinger

One needs only two tools: WD40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and should, use WD40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the tape.

[PH]

By Rob's definition there are probably only 8 or 10 improvisers in the history of jazz, and no more than 1 or 2 are trumpeters. Is there a jazz trumpeter besides Armstrong who invented a new language?

I use the same English words as Shakespeare, Joyce, etc. but say my own ideas my own way. Do I not speak English?

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2002-01-15 21:15 ]

[tom turner]

Hi TrickG (Patrick),

Ahh . . . an honest, modest and humble trumpeter. Oh how I wish the world had more of 'em!

You may not be able to ride up to the standards you'd expect but I bet you are a very musical player, for you are demanding about your standards!!!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[Emb_Enh]

If only I could improvise like Roy Hargrove I would die happy!! ---a truly brilliant performer!!
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[trickg]

Tom,

Thanks for the kind words. I do try to hold up my end in any ensemble. I guess that fear is one of the biggest things in improvisation for me to overcome. Fear of failure or of sounding stupid is what keeps me from trying to do it more, even though I realize that really the only people who are going to know if I suck or not are going to be those in the band with me and they will most likely forget about it by the next tune. While playing in an ensemble, no one is really listening to a single player directly, but once they start taking a ride, the whole focus is shifted directly to them.

I should start recording myself and critiquing that, but that is another subject for another day.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[rch-tech]

In High School, I was a lead player. Since then I've done both lead and section work. I love lead, and really have a hard time if I don't have the melody. I don't believe I am a very well rounded player at all, and probably one of the few trumpet players without an ego.
Actually I think I am awful and have alot of work to do.
As far as improv...I have always wanted to be able to improv...its has been a hole in my playing for as long as I can remember...those of us who can't improv and want to be able to feel a large sense of lacking....after reading this, I might as well hang up my horn!
I am getting better though, however my improv is so amateurish and I have a hard time using actual patterns.
I find it hard to stray from the Bb blues scale...so my playing is amateurish...

[Emb_Enh]

Yes rch-tech!! --I agree it's hard to give up those fave. licks ain't it!! -- : )
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

[rch-tech]

I guess i can't really call my improv's "licks"
They sound the same...and sound inexperienced...
I have been looking for a good mentor to pick up some improv habits from...apparently trumpet players in Madison, Wi are quite rare...

[tom turner]

rch-tech,

I want to encourage you. The fact that you are becoming aware that your inprovisation is in a rut is a good sign that you are going to possibly take it to the next level!

Many folks aren't aware of the "sameness" in their solos and when one is closed-minded, or unaware that there is more, they won't get out of the rut.

You are aware though!!! BTW, all musicians and soloists go in and out of this realization, which is scary if you think about it! I have some good news and bad news . . . the good news is that with practice, we'll get better! The bad news . . . we'll never be totally satisfied.

Start finding licks that inspire you on recordings and try to copy them. Also, turn on a radio and play along with whatever is playing--refusing to play the same old licks. When the song ends and the car salesman starts screaming about blow outs, hit the seek button on the radio and play with the next thing on the dial and so on. It will really sharpen up your ear to hearing chords, scales, etc.

The second tip: record all your practice sessions and play back each small segment as you rest. You'll get instant feedback, have time to rest, and begin to really hear past the old "ego" to what you are actually doing when you play. BTW, you will discover times when you'll be "strokin'" your ego too, as you hear some really hot licks that you did.

Best wishes,

Tom

[Larry Smithee]

Hello All,
Excuse me for butting in, but I've been folowing this thread for a while with great interest and would like to add my experience, limited as that might be. First, I've never had a jazz improv lesson and didn't actually play in a jazz band until around my junior year in colege. I did have all the usual college formal classical tech approach in lessons, theory, blah, blah, blah, but no jazz.

When I was around 12 I accidentally caught a weekly Sunday night traditional jazz radio show coming from New Orleans. It really had am impact. Unlike pop music of my period there was my instrument prominently displayed out front. I immediately began to imitate and assimilate (all by ear of course). I began buying jazz records leading to more imitation and assimilation (again, all by ear). Having no teachers in this medium it never occurred to me that I should actually write down and transcribe some of the solos I was hearing. I would try to play along to some of the recordings (by ear of couse), focusing only on the rhythm section in an attempt to hear if the notes I played actually "fit".

I've really struggled with this stuff daily since then and I mean daily (I'm now 50+). You know, the way some around here work etude books, solo literature, and other drills 2-3 hours or more a day? Well, I do that with my jazz playing. When, in my practicing, I discover a new idea (to me), it might take 2 months or more working on the idea and developing it to finally be able to work it into a jazz improv solo in an efforthless, and hopefully spontaneous sounding manner.

My whole point here is that I think some of the posters might be missing something. The main thing here in terms of improv is hard work, and you must keep at it daily. As usual there are no short cuts.

My main jazz music of choice is bebop. It's not particularly new, of course, but it's what I like to play and am most comfortable with and what I think I sound best playing. Nevertheless, I still find myself lacking and soon I will be taking a yearlong break form college teaching to use the time to seek a prvate jazz improv teacher. This will be my first such lesson and I'm looking forward to the musical growth that will potentially come from such study. I can't wait.
Larry Smithee

[BeboppinFool]

I've been away from home for awhile, and it was nice to come back and see what's been written in this thread. Wow!

I would like to add to this discussion the fact that as an improvisor, I definitely spent many years thoroughly sucking before I felt that I had a clue. Even now, more often than not, I rarely feel that I have turned in *any* decent solos. That's the problem with having high standards.

But the thing that made me want to get better the most was when people told me the truth: that I did sound lousy. Once I was invited to sit in on a gig, and the regular guys were very good, and I wasn't. Well, on my way off the stage, one of them said, "Study, buddy," and he wasn't really very nice about it.

I took the "hint" and really got serious about doing my homework. My personal opinion about being an improvising jazz musician is that we need to do the most homework of any kind of musician. Period.

Think of the number of tunes we need to learn, often in 12 keys. Think of the number of scales we have to have at our command automatically. Think of the number of chords, chord progressions, and alternate progressions we need to memorize. Think of the numbers! It's substantially more homework than somebody who's just going to read notes all his/her playing life.

But the good news is that it's something that comes with hard work. I agree that it's not in the genetic code. I had to learn how to learn jazz improvisation. I am not sure if anybody can actually teach how to improvise, but I'm sure that we can be taught how to *learn* to improvise.

Assimilation . . . imitation . . . inspiration. I'm enjoying reading what you folks have been writing on this subject, and hope more people will jump in and voice their experiences or theories. Take care!
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 14:19 ]