lamp oil?

[Capt.Kirk]

I posted a home brew recipe that ultimately worked out to be 10%-30% Synthetic GM Dex VI ATF with the remander being Ultra Pure Lamp oil unscented. It used to be $13 a gallon at Ace and the ATF was under $4 a quart.

I made up a Quart worth about 2 years ago and my son and I just now need to make more up.

You can also replace the ATF with 3in1 valve oil. That recipe the 3in1 is time tested as a mixer with Blue Juice for worn out vintage horns. They normally use that combo 50/50 but you can use the same 10%-30% in the above with the lamp oil.

In this way you can have the oil as thin or viscous as you need. You get great protection and your valve stay clean.

Plain lamp oil evaperates really fast as does not do a good job of protecting the parts from sliding contact. It is 90% of what is in cheap valve oil.
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[Tony Scodwell]

I've chimed in here a few times on "my" valve oil formula. Actually it was given to me by the great lead trumpet player Billy Hodges and I will list the formula again:

For each ounce of "Ultra Pure" lamp oil add 10 drops of "Break Free" gun clip oil. Target sells the Ultra Pure oil under their own name but it will always say "Ultra Pure" 100% pure parafin oil made by Lamplighter Farms in Wisconsin on the back label. They also make an oil with citronella in it but it is stinky and not pure parafin. The "Break Free" gun clip oil comes in a spray can and you can spray it all into a bottle and hold it that way. "Break Free" is available at Big 5 sporting goods and I've seen it at Walmart in the sporting goods department. If you need a thicker oil for older valves, just add twenty drops "Break Free" per ounce of "Ultra Pure". By the way, this "Ultra Pure" is a registered name and not to be confused with the commercial valve oil of the same name.

I have been making this oil for years and yes, it's cheap to make. It's also better than any oil I've ever used and that is the reason for using it. The only drawback is a tendency to accumulate a curly cue of residue in the crooks and ports if you don't clean your horn on a regular basis, which is not really a problem at all if you clean your horn at least once a month.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available in the US only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808 or now in Europe at Musik-Bertram, Freiburg, Germany.

[Capt.Kirk]

I tried 100% Breakfree CLP before I was ever on TrumpetHerald. I use it on my firearms and grew up with since Dad was in the Army. I want to say it is mid 1980's.... When I first learned of it.

Even at 100% while a tad more viscous then most trumpet players would prefer it worked just fine on my older but still in reat shape 30+ year old horns. The only prolem I found with it at 100% is that it would turn Green. I figured it had somethign to do with breaking down old oxidized brass inside the horn. Not being able to run further test I stoped useing it.

Not once did it cause any issues it did not discolor the valves just the naked brass inside some of the slide tubes. Since I could not tell if it was simply dissolving already oxidized copper or breaking down copper I stopped using it. I doubt 10 drops is enough to do any harm at all. Like most things the difference between a poison and a cure is in the dosage.

I still use BreakFree CLP for a lot of things from firearms to general lub on hinges and car doors etc.....Just thought I would point out my mysterious green liquid when I used it 100% as valve oil......I tried at least 20 -30 different things before I started blended various items to arrive at my own home brew. having been trained by my Dad and General Motor's in Tribology it was a logical project to play around with.

I might have a new 100% synthetic product for off label use for you guys soon. It is 100% synthetic intended for mining, factories and automotive use. It comes in pints for $9 and is available in 3 difference viscosity. It is even tested for use in hydraulic systems in the Arctic!

I test things for not less then 3 months on nickle silver, monel and stainless steel pistons before I will mention them to other's! When my testing is done I will talk more. It is available globaly at specility stores or via mail order.
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[hup_d_dup]

What is the purity of lamp oil? Does the manufacturer need to concern themselves with the purity of a product that is going into a lamp, the way a manufacturer of valve oil needs to be concerned about a product that is going into a valve?

Even it the product is pure when manufactured, what if you get the last bottle that came from a 50 gallon drum? My assumption is that more care would be taken with the packaging of a valve oil (or gun oil) than lamp oil.

I also assume that the packaging environment of a company that makes a small amount of critical lubricant, destined for use by hyper-observant users, would be cleaner than a company that makes a much greater volume of fuel whose customers will simply burn it.

Hup.

[VetPsychWars]

I have the same questions... plus I find it odd that guys with thousands of dollars worth of expensive instruments want to save pennies on oil.

Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

[cheiden]

Perhaps it's paraniod but I don't think there's sufficent savings to warrant using something that could be harmful. If you're in the habit of using lots of oil then perhaps it's more important. Me, I've gravitated to an oil that lasts so long that the cost is negligible.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Tony Scodwell]

I did say that cost was not a factor with my lamp oil based valve oil. I did say that it was the best I've ever used and since 1988, not one problem with discoloration or wear. And BreakFree CLP oil at 100%...slow valves. That reminded me about the time I put olive oil in my Holton bottle to stop Rick Baptist from using all my oil on the relief night at the Sands. Now THERE is a story to tell down the road.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available in the US only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808 and now in Europe at Musik-Bertram, Freiburg, Germany.

[Ed Lee]

Anybody else, as I have, used Singer sewing machine oil in emergency? Worked for me. On occasion when it was really frigid, added 2 drops of pharmacy grade castor oil to a 1 oz bottle of the sewing machine oil.

[TRUMPONIMUS]

As was said here earlier.... Why do people with thousands of dollars worth of equipment want to mess around with things like ... lamp oil ... CLP oil ... sewing machine oil ... ATF fluid ...3 in 1 oil ... wd-40 ... etc., etc, to protect their investments.
Is the satisfaction of making something yourself, that you think is just as good as something you purchase, to do a job it was designed to do, worth it??
With the exception of one poster who I repect very much as a player and designer, Tony Scodwell, I think others with less knowledge of the subject should just buy a good brand name oil and leave the mixing to the people who know what they are doing, and not take the risk of damaging your horns .. or worse yet ... setting fire to your house.
An oil like La Tromba T2 Special. I know Tony is farilier with it because of his association with Doc.
Check it out here http://www.bikyle.com/T2.asp
or contact me trumpetideas@msn.com

Jimmy.
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"When you're done learning ... you're done living!

[AverageJoe]

I have a colleague who has used pure lamp oil (no scent, no paraffin) on all of his horns for decades, and as Tony Scodwell pointed out, it is often used as the base in commercial valve oil anyway. To each his own!

Paul
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"Every time I hear you play, you sound better than the next..."

[Capt.Kirk]

First no one that sells valve manufactures the base stock or petro-distillates themselves they buy existing raw ingredients like liquid paraffin or kerosene or JP8 etc.....You would have to be naive as a 19 year old to think other wise. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to refine crude into base stocks or to manufacture a synthetic from ethylene gas or any other gas for that matter....?

I buy base stocks on the open market and I buy Ornite additive systems from a refinery to blend some of my own products. Even companies like Castrol do not refine their own base stocks they buy on the market from SOPUS,EM and other's. Some bottlers build their own additive packages but most purchase those from large refineries too. Why? Testing the large companies like SOPUS and EM pay the expensive testing fee's for their additive packages. This means you can buy a base stock from anyone and if you use a tested,certified, additive package you can include all those cet's on your label as long as you pay for the right. You get to skip the expensive testing of your product though.

I also think it is naive to think that more then informal testing is done on valve oils. First their is no standards for them to meet. When was the last time any company selling valve oil paid a claim out to anyone for damage caused as a result of unseeing their product? How would you a trumpet player even prove such a case when their is no standard for corrosion, viscosity, shearing, extreme pressure, oxidation resistance????

Keep in mind I have been an Expert Witness I know I hate the term too for General Motor's legal staff.....I never had to show up in court but my reports where often used by the legal staff. They would often call me up and ask me all kinds of questions before heading into a meeting to strike a deal.

Copper is a yellow metal nickel silver and monel are made with copper so anything that is safe for yellow metal is safe for a trumpet.

Ultra Pure lamp oil is refined to the point that it does not produces any smudging or visible black soot when burned in an oil lamp. It is safe to use in homes for lighting and heating. It has been used as a light source long before crude was being refined. UltraPure is more refined then Medallion is which is why people use UltraPure it is better refined. The main difference between jet fuel and kerosene is the filtration. Long before additives where applied to aviation jet fuel filtration and purity was applied.

I would add that none of you has any clue right this minute if their are any impurities in your valve oil because none of you have any clue what is even in it to start with.

Human contact with raw brass is bad for the brass so even your own skin and breath are not good for the brass.

How many mircrons of filtration is needed? I could put valve oil through a Whatmann .2uf filter which exceeds the purity required for water or for injectable medications. .45 microns is generally considered sterile. That would not guarantee much of anything since their could still be chemicals in the end product not good for valves. I could filter acid to that level but the acid would still not be good.

So how is someone going to make an informed decision. Well I can tell you this much. Ultrapure Lamp oil and Kerosene where used before store bought valve oil became the in thing! Lamp oil cut with ATF is safe because ATF is tested against yellow metals. Not wishful thinking but scientific fact. Why? Because they use yellow metals, carbon fiber, plastic, aluminum,stainless steel,iron,paper,ruber and almost everything else including Silver in transmission that use ATF. Same thing can be said for any high end hydraulic fluid. I do not assume anything when it comes to oils let alone valve oils for trumpets.

When was the last time any of you say any scientific testing from any of the big name valve oils you buy?

Ignorance is bliss is not a very true statement and making decisions based on fear not fact is like wise not a good thing. It means you are making a lot of assumptions like the idea that some how "Branded Valve Oils" have some how been tested for wear reduction and safety in a manner that is in line with the scientific method! LOL

The other day I used 3in1 cut with lamp oil. Why? Wanted to change things up for no other reason then that. I am useing 20% 3in1 to 80% UltraPure both purchased from my local Ace Hardware Store.

So 3.2 onces of 3in1 mixed with 12.8 onces of UltraPure will give me 16 onces of valve oil. I paid $4.99 or $5.99 for 32 onces of Ultra Pure and $3.49 for 4 onces of 3in1. I have lamp oil left over to make more should I want to or need too. I can also use the remaining lamp oil to fill my oil lamps which come in handy when the power goes out. The remainder of the 3in1 can be used around the house, on firearms, you name it. So for less then $10 I have 16 ounces of valve oil and plenty of raw ingredients left over. Had I spent that $10 on valve oil I would not have anything left over for other applications and I doubt I would have gotten much better then I what I made.

10%-30% of either the ATF or 3in1 is what I tend to use. I can adjust it for any horns amount of valve wear.

Same thing goes for the lanolin Valvoline home brew slide grease. You could fear that the sky is falling and that it will some how damage your horn but you would be wrong.
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[Madray]

I have been an Expert Witness I know I hate the term too for General Motor's legal staff.....I never had to show up in court but my reports where often used by the legal staff.




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led strip lighting
led strip lighting outdoor
12v led light bars

[davidkoch]

[doclev]

I use UltraPure Lam oil, and find it to be not only fast, but very long lasting.
But here is another question. I once spilled some valve oil on my pants. Next day--no spot, nothing. So I gathered 4 or 5 different brand valve oils I had sitting around, and put a dot of each on a piece of paper. Left it overnight, and next day--no spots. Nothing--no evidence of any of them being there. So where did it go. Is this stuff petroleum based or not. Wouldn't a petroleum derivative leave some kind of evidence? Neither did the Ultra Pure leave a spot. What happened?

[asmith]

My experience with lamp oil has been in a slightly different use. My teacher at the time (late 70's) put me on to it; After disassembling and cleaning the horn's internals with snake, brush, warm water and dish detergent and after a thorough flushing out with very hot water (silver horn) or less hot water (lacquer horn), the horn is dried and reassembled. Then, about an ounce, more or less, of lamp oil is poured into the bell and the horn vigorously shaken, followed by blowing through the lead pipe, while operating the valves to get the lamp oil into all the internal tubing. Then follow up with the normal oiling procedure for valves and the application of slide grease where appropriate. When blowing through the leadpipe, point the bell downward over a waste basket, because most of the oil is going to come out the end of the bell. The idea here is to coat the internal tubing to prevent corrosion and the buildup of crud that over time, will necessitate a chem clean. I've used this procedure for over 30 years, about 4 times a year and the internal tubing is pretty close to like new. A quart of lamp oil lasts me from 8 - 10 years. Other techniques for applying the oil could be used that would require far less oil. Just my $.02 worth.
_________________
Bach 180ML silver, Bb
Bach 180CL, 239 bell, 'A' leadpipe
Yamaha 631 Flugel
Schilke P5-4, Bb/A
Yamaha 761s D/Eb
Olds Ambassador cornet
Bach 184s cornet, Bb, ML
D.E.G. signature 2000 cornet, LB

[Ed Lee]

[Mnc]

Good question doclev...hope somebody knows the answer.

[doclev]

I do too. I don't think Ed Lee understands the question. I'm putting clean oil on the paper, and next day there is no evidence of it being there. You can write ballpoint ink on it. "Oil" doesn't work like that. Are they selling us water?

[Capt.Kirk]

I live in Michigan and have never had Ultra Pure Lamp Oil turn to jelly or gel. Now that said lesser brands of liquid Parafin which can cover a lot of turf . I make valve oil for each trumpet specific to it's level of wear/clearances. For the record tolerances have nothing to do with the space between your piston and it's bore that word is "clearance". As a horn is used and wear takes place the "clearances" increase between the parts which means the oil has to get thicker to both protect as well as it did when new, to seal so you have some compression and to have the same feel as when the horn was new. The tolerances never change once the horn is produced only the clearances can change.

I make home brew valve oil using Ultra Pure Lamp oil and either 3in1 oil or Synthetic Walmart Brand Dex VI ATF. I generally make a mix that is 70% lamp oil and 30% other. I have some horns though that either are heavily worn needing more "other" or they are new and very tight and need less "other" and more "lamp oil"!

Many people have tried the above and find either a 90% lamp oil 10% other or 70% lamp oil and 30% other tends to work for them better then the store bought stuff they have been using. The best part is that you get to tune your oil to your specific needs.

I would not use 100% lamp oil because I do not think it protects well enough and it evaporates too quickly. Most valve oils are mostly lamp oil or kerosene. Ultra Pure Lamp oil is $13 a gallon at Ace and Synthetic ATF Walmarts Brand is under $5 a quart. You can make a lot of valve oil for under $20!!!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[Accordion Ron]

Can't see where co$t is a big factor in valve oil. A little bottle last for months. Any one tried whale oil.....