Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:40 pm Post subject: Playing With an Open Throat?
I understand the human nature of closing off the throat when playing higher all too well, because I've mastered the art of doing it.
How does one keep their throat open when playing higher? It's become a natural response to my body for my throat to close up, and I really need to fix this.
Thanks guys. _________________ Proverbs 15:1
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Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:31 pm Post subject:
Phyllis Stork, of Stork Mouthpieces, has written about this a few times. She points out that closing down the throat (actually, the vocal chords) and/or raising the back of the tongue are coping mechanisms to add resistance in an attempt to speed up the air to playing velocity. Here's an article on her website that explains: http://storkcustom.com/dr-mouthpiece/
One remedy is to use equipment with more resistance. Then your subconscious brain will be less inclined to close your throat (vocal chords) and raise the back of your tongue to add resistance and speed up the air. You can also help the cause by developing and strengthening your ability to add air power as you go higher. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
I read the Wick article although with some skepticism at first. Because I've long thought that the "closed throat" matter was a misdiagnosis. Instead a lack of air support the probable cause of troubles. To my pleasant surprise Wick came up with the same thought. Although he still continued to state that closing the throat is a problem.
Maybe this is because the "closed throat" concept is a sacred cow to teachers and directors. From day one when we begin playing the trumpet we hear to "always keep your throat open". Never mind that if you did close your throat to any significant degree you would hear a gagging sound upon exhalation.
But I'm riding a dark horse here and I know it. Because the issue is a contentious one. Sacred cow as I said.
There was an assistant band director back in my freshman year of college. No one else in the concert band had anything above a high C besides me but the assistant director didn't know this. Nor did he know me personally either. Didnt even know where the high notes were coming from in the trumpet section.
This assistant himself was a trumpet player too albeit kinda weak of one. Well during an exposed section and suffering from major burnout (due to playing all of the high notes for many days) I mildly fluffed a middle register note on an exposed entrance. The assistant director stops the band and tells me to "keep my throat open". And that this will "help my upper register problems too".
Feeling more than a little miffed I picked up my horn and blew a cadenza to a very loud High G. Sustaining it for a long tone and capped it with a double C. Right in front of the whole band and everyone else. Demonstrating a clear octave of usable range over this guy trying to tell me what to do.
It's funny sometimes. I've received more advice from 2nd, 3rd and 4th trumpet players than the stronger ones. Hysterical. Guys straining for a mere G top of the staff suddenly feel qualified to offer suggestions on how I could improve my own high notes. When I've got an octave or more range than they do. So strange. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Phyllis Stork, of Stork Mouthpieces, has written about this a few times. She points out that closing down the throat (actually, the vocal chords) and/or raising the back of the tongue are coping mechanisms to add resistance in an attempt to speed up the air to playing velocity. Here's an article on her website that explains: http://storkcustom.com/dr-mouthpiece/
"Air speed" has just about ZERO to do with anything.
It is a myth that the "speed" of the air flow is what provides the air pressure at the aperture.
Any attempt to "speed" the air by narrowing the air path will reduce the air pressure available at the aperture, adding unnecessary resistance to the flow of air in the oral space or through the throat.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:28 pm Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
Quote:
Phyllis Stork, of Stork Mouthpieces, has written about this a few times. She points out that closing down the throat (actually, the vocal chords) and/or raising the back of the tongue are coping mechanisms to add resistance in an attempt to speed up the air to playing velocity. Here's an article on her website that explains: http://storkcustom.com/dr-mouthpiece/
"Air speed" has just about ZERO to do with anything.
It is a myth that the "speed" of the air flow is what provides the air pressure at the aperture.
Any attempt to "speed" the air by narrowing the air path will reduce the air pressure available at the aperture, adding unnecessary resistance to the flow of air in the oral space or through the throat.
Where did the person you are replying to (or Phyllis stork) mention anything about air pressure? By the way, your reply just reminded me. About a month or so ago in a moment of inspiration I created a video for you Darryl. I just finally uploaded it to YouTube. Here 'tis:
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Playing With an Open Throat?
jazzman99 wrote:
I understand the human nature of closing off the throat when playing higher all too well, because I've mastered the art of doing it.
How does one keep their throat open when playing higher? It's become a natural response to my body for my throat to close up, and I really need to fix this.
Thanks guys.
I dealt with this problem too many years ago. I developed an unwanted habit where as soon as I tried to slur up to the G on top the staff I would involuntarily grunt and strain and cut off the air stream. Note that when this happens, we are not really closing our throat (our Trachea doesn't collapse). We are raising the back of the tongue up while lowering the soft palate down until they meet and it is this that reduces or even completely cuts off the air stream.
The best advice I can give you is for now, stay out of the range where this starts to happen, as you'll just be reinforcing the habit/problem.
Certain exercises can be helpful. In particular, hold very low and/or Pedal notes as long as you can (in a fairly full volume - the idea is not to see how long you can make the note, the idea is to get the air out), and as you run out of air, try to crescendo the note. By doing this on very low notes, which by definition, require a lot of relaxed air volume (flow), you can learn the feel of and develop the habit of being able to blow hard all the while staying relaxed in he area that needs to stay relaxed, if you pay attention to, and try to memorize the feeling of blowing as hard as you can (as you run empty but are trying to crescendo), all the while staying completely relaxed in the area of the back of the tongue and soft palate. The knack of being able to blow hard and create tension in the muscles that need to be tense (the blowing muscles, the facial muscles and the tongue muscles that arch the tongue up and forward) all the while keeping the other areas relaxed and open (the soft palate and the back of the tongue) is one of the keys to playing in the upper register.
The tongue needs to arch up and forward, not up and back. Up and forward, and the tongue acts upon the airstream like a nozzle on a hose, concentrating its force and speeding it up the way a nozzle concentrates and speeds up the water stream and makes it able to shoot stones off a driveway. But if improperly arched up and back in the mouth, the tongue then acts like a pair of pliers squeezing on a hose several inches before its end, reducing the water flow to a dribble.
Easy flexibilities in the low and mid ranges could help, too. Just stay away from range where the problem starts. With patience and time, you can and will overcome this situation.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
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Last edited by John Mohan on Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:48 pm Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
Quote:
Phyllis Stork, of Stork Mouthpieces, has written about this a few times. She points out that closing down the throat (actually, the vocal chords) and/or raising the back of the tongue are coping mechanisms to add resistance in an attempt to speed up the air to playing velocity. Here's an article on her website that explains: http://storkcustom.com/dr-mouthpiece/
"Air speed" has just about ZERO to do with anything.
It is a myth that the "speed" of the air flow is what provides the air pressure at the aperture.
Any attempt to "speed" the air by narrowing the air path will reduce the air pressure available at the aperture, adding unnecessary resistance to the flow of air in the oral space or through the throat.
Phyllis wrote something to that effect in this article in regard to players who raise the back of their tongue or close their vocal chords "in a way that slows the air, or even shuts it down in an attempt to create resistance."
I think the difference is you're focusing on the air pressure, while Phyllis wrote about about air speed. I see what you're getting at, and I won't argue those points.
I mentioned this article because Phyllis's main point, that trumpeters sometimes raise the back of their tongue and close their vocal chords as an unfortunate coping mechanism to deal with equipment that's too big for them, is an important one and might help the OP. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:57 pm Post subject:
I don't think too open of equipment is necessary to cause this problem. It's a natural human tendancy to strain and grunt when one performs an extremely physical exercise such as lifting heavy weights, pushing a car, etc.
It's not good for a weightlifter to do this as he struggles to lift a heavy weight over his head, as it could cause a hernia. But barring a hernia, he'll probably be able to get that weight over his head even if he grunts and groans while doing it. But for a brass player trying to blow nearly as hard as he can to play an extremely high note, if he grunts and groans, it's over before it even began!
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:13 pm Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
The air dryer video is not comparable to the playing system for a number of reasons and it is an irrelevant comparison.
Two similar flexible membranes pressed lightly against each other with an airstream passing through them, causing them to vibrate. Yea, right... "irrelevant".
Off subject, but I hope you and your family had a wonderful Thanksgiving Darryl!
Two similar flexible membranes pressed lightly against each other with an airstream passing through them, causing them to vibrate. Yea, right... "irrelevant".
When playing, ALL of the air that flows, flows through the aperture. The trumpet aperture is at the boundary of a static air pressure, not immersed in a free flowing stream with air flowing also outside of it (around it).
It is also easy for you to manipulate the "membranes" to achieve the results you seek and thereby claim it is "air speed".
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:11 pm Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
Quote:
Two similar flexible membranes pressed lightly against each other with an airstream passing through them, causing them to vibrate. Yea, right... "irrelevant".
When playing, ALL of the air that flows, flows through the aperture. The trumpet aperture is at the boundary of a static air pressure, not immersed in a free flowing stream with air flowing also outside of it (around it).
It is also easy for you to manipulate the "membranes" to achieve the results you seek and thereby claim it is "air speed".
Any (comparatively small amount of) air that wasn't flowing through my palms was obviously insignificant to what the air that was flowing through my palms did.
I remember years ago when I referenced in a post here ( http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1107847 ) a YouTube video of a player playing on a clear mouthpiece, and I pointed out how the spit bubbles in the stem of the mouthpiece could plainly be seen to be moving faster through the mouthpiece on higher notes. (This can be seen at about 8:50 on the video).
You had all kinds of excuses back then defending your dogmatic point of view. That thread grew to 13 pages in length. What a waste of time!!! I'm sure you'll have all kinds of excuses in the future, too, if anyone provides evidence that contradicts your rather firmly held opinions. Reasonable people adjust their opinions according to the evidence at hand. You don't.
As to your second paragraph, it is clear you are calling my integrity and honesty into question. So now we are done. I'll continue to point out your misinterpretations to players who might be negatively affected by them, and provide evidence to that end (something you've never done here), but our conversation is over.
One of the hallmarks of good scientific experimentation is that the experiment must be repeatable with the same results being obtained. Anyone with access to a public restroom with one of those new, high velocity hand dryers is most welcome to repeat my silly little experiment.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
Last edited by John Mohan on Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
from the stork bit:
The ideal playing scenario features a player who can create tremendous velocity of air directed to the front of the mouth while maintaining maximum oral cavity levels.
I pointed out how the spit bubbles in the stem of the mouthpiece could plainly be seen to be moving faster through the mouthpiece on higher notes.
Which indicates an increase in air flow. Since the backbore is a fixed cross section at any point. It is obvious that he is increasing the blowing pressure, and the loudness for the higher notes. He is also, obviously, DRASTICALLY changing the aperture in size which is causing the pitch change. It is very simple. Also which one can do with a steady flow or even less flow, and still execute a pitch change. Flow is proportional to loudness as well.
Typical of you to conveniently ignore all of the variables and pick and choose that which fits your dogmatic narrative.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:59 am Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
Quote:
I pointed out how the spit bubbles in the stem of the mouthpiece could plainly be seen to be moving faster through the mouthpiece on higher notes.
Which indicates an increase in air flow.
Well, I thought I was through replying to you (pretty pissed that you basically called me a liar), but here I am with half a nice strong coffee in me brightening my outlook.
Just want to point out that I find it interesting how you think there is more flow for the higher notes when in fact, we all know there is less flow on higher notes. Maybe you're different, but I've never met a brass player who can hold a Low C even at mp as long as he or she can hold a High C at a full forte...
Just want to point out that I find it interesting how you think there is more flow for the higher notes when in fact, we all know there is less flow on higher notes.
IF you are claiming the velocity through the backbore in the video is greater for the (loud) high notes than it is for the (softer) low notes then you are also claiming, defacto, that the flow is also greater for the higher notes.
Velocity x Area = Flow
The mp backbone geometry (cross sectional area) is obviously the same in both cases.
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:21 am Post subject:
Hmm... phpBB is open source, is it not? Maybe worth looking into writing some code to auto-block any thread in which kalijah and John both participate. Call the add-on "HereWeGoAgain."
_________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:13 am Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
IF you are claiming the velocity through the backbore in the video is greater for the (loud) high notes than it is for the (softer) low notes then you are also claiming, defacto, that the flow is also greater for the higher notes.
Not if the actual air stream's cross section is smaller in diameter than the available inner diameter of the stem (and perhaps even the throat) of the mouthpiece when playing high notes then it is when playing low notes. I think the airstream is channeled by the arching tongue just as a water stream is channeled by the nozzle on the end of a hose. As such, that air stream on high notes isn't necessarily going to "spread out" instantly and fill the entire interior of the mouthpiece stem, any more than a stream of water sprayed into a pipe that's several times the stream's diameter is suddenly going to occupy the entire cross section of the interior of the pipe.
I know you don't believe that to be the case. But I think that when playing in the top register the tongue arches up and forward to create a very thin (and fast) stream of air just before it passes through the lips. I know I haven't proven this, but you most certainly have not disproven it, either.
In the interest of returning this thread to its original topic (Randy does have a point), if you want to continue this discussion, please start a new thread and I'll respond time permitting.
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