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Ear Abilities: Carmine vs. Others...


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healey.cj
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:47 am    Post subject: Ear Abilities: Carmine vs. Others... Reply with quote

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Last edited by healey.cj on Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tomba51
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Ear Abilities: Carmine v.s Others... Reply with quote

healey.cj wrote:
The Carmine Caruso method is something i have been thinking about lately and the nature of it seems to suggest to me that it is more likely than some other methods to foster perfect pitch.

I was wondering if anyone knows Caruso's thoughts on the ability. Did he think it could be taught or developed? Did he think it was of any importance or value? etc

I also wonder about how many students of caruso may have discovered or developed it while under his tutalage v.s other teachers/methods.

I may be way off base in that there may be no difference at all, but nevertheless it is an interesting thought.

Chris


In several years of studying with Carmine, I do not remember him addressing this topic, and I certainly do not possess perfect pitch. However, come to think of it, I usually do know in advance what 2nd line "G" is going to sound like. That's the first note of the 6 notes and is always is the first note of the day. If you want to call that perfect pitch, that's OK with me, but I tend to think that it's more related to a "feel" of what that note is like on the horn, rather than actual perfect pitch.

Anyone else care to chime in on this topic?

Tom
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Ear Abilities: Carmine v.s Others... Reply with quote

tomba51 wrote:

I tend to think that it's more related to a "feel" of what that note is like on the horn, rather than actual perfect pitch.

I agree. Carmine expressed it many times that the player develops a muscular identity for each note, rather than hearing the note in your mind as so many other teachers try to emphasize. If you can hear the note you'll know if you have hit the right pitch, but if you have a developed muscular sense of what is required to play the note, you'll play it.

Mr C did mention that he had perfect pitch.
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PH
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carmine told me a couple of things that relate. However, perfect pitch was not a goal, or even necessarily desirable according to things he told me.

Carmine told me that with repetition we will learn to "taste" (his word) the note on your chops. What he meant was that after continued exposure to the exercises our bodies develop a sense of what a certain note will feel like. This is the kinesthetic memory. this helped combine the sense of hearing with the physical. Eventually it gets to the point where you hear someone play a note and you automatically know what the note is, not because you have perfect pitch but because hearing activiates the kinesthetic memory. I hear someone sit on a high F at the end of a chart and I can "taste" what it would feel like to play that note.

Carmine also told me that perfect pitch wasn't necessary, but that relative pitch was indispensible. He said that developing the ability through calisthenic practice to hear and cleanly execute all the various intervals automatically improved your ability to play music, regardless of what instrument you played or what style of music you played.

Related to relative pitch, I remember a lesson where Carmine had me play a G. then he asked me to listen to the sounds I heard. "What notes are that bus horn making? What note is the window fan humming? etc." He said I needed to learn to have my ears turned on ALL THE TIME!
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gennaro
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know any about original Caruso thinking about this topic... but I read a lot about Alfred Tomatis studies on earing (very innovative teories for the period he pubblished.... now almost condivised):

- earing is also a muscolar activities... i.e. can be trained... i.e. Kalistenics approach colud be effective.

If it is the best or the worst way is only your own consideration based on your concern or experience.... my personal experience is positive.

Gennaro
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trplayer22
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I agree. Carmine expressed it many times that the player develops a muscular identity for each note, rather than hearing the note in your mind as so many other teachers try to emphasize. If you can hear the note you'll know if you have hit the right pitch, but if you have a developed muscular sense of what is required to play the note, you'll play it.


So are you saying that you do not hear the note at all when you play? do you simply feel it?
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So are you saying that you do not hear the note at all when you play? do you simply feel it?

If I have a tonal reference then I can hear the pitch. But to just hear an isolated pitch? No. But it doesn't matter if the muscular demand for a note is built into your embouchure. They'll play. Coming in clean on real high stuff is always the hardest.
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PivotBone
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since this topic was about Caruso vs. other methods with regards to ear training and it turned into a discussion about "feeling" the notes, I thought I might point out that "feeling" a note you are going to play was vitally important in the teachings of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt. In fact, his "sensation theory" is one of the very first things he mentions in his encylopedia. He felt that most great players, whether they relize it or not, play more by feel than by sound. To continue this, he thinks that "natural players" are the ones who have a unified "preplaying" and "Playing" sensation. That is, the feel they have for a note just before playing it and then while playing it are the same. The point of warming up, then, is the help reestablish yesterdays preplaying and playing sensations. Concentrating on these sensations and playing with the eyes closed are two means of working toward this.

I just thought some of you might find this interesting. I know I also enjoy hearing how different teachers arrive at the same conclusions.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that what Pat and Tom are describing is the basis of Dave Berge's “Perfect Pitch Course” if I understand it correctly. Some refer to a feel, some describe various pitches as colors, etc. I discovered very early, 11 years old or so, that with the cornet in my hands, not actually playing, I could tell what pitch was being played or sung around me and join right in by ear. Eventually I learned I did not need the instrument to do so but I inevitably would call pitches in Bb rather than concert pitch. My older brother, a horn player with perfect pitch finally explained the concept of transposing to concert pitch from Bb.

When I first started teaching I would turn my back to the group and challenge kids to play a pitch on their instrument, which I would immediately duplicate on my trumpet. I then would reciprocate and often times the students would be close. I still do this with 10-15 year olds and at least half are either on or within a step.

I would guess that most of us can tell what pitch is being played, or if they come into a club date can tell the key of the tune without someone telling them. Ear training is just that. We should strive to throw away the crutches of the written music when developing the ear. Best wishes.
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PH
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that Burge (or anyone else who is born with or acquires "perfect" pitch as opposed to "relative" pitch) is talking about the same thing, because what I am talking about is inextricably related to the experience of playing an instrument. Burge is talking about "hearing colors".

I don't think one actually can--or should--seperate the physical sensation of playing a note from the ability to "audiate" (pre-hear in the imagination). The whole point of calisthenic practice (CC or any other approach that uses a routine of exercises-whether they use this term or not) is to use repetition of simple fundamentals to first coordinate the physical components of playing and then to create a habit where successful playing of the instrument is virtually a reflex.

Development of the ear and the imagination creates the ability to more clearly focus on the target. The clearer one can picture the target the more consistently one will hit the target.

Calisthenic practice helps the body develop the ability to hit the target. The more reliably (and automatically) the body responds to a demand the more consistently one will hit the target.

Some people need more work on the mechanical and some need more work on the aural/imagination. Everyone needs to develop both aspects and every great player develops the ability for the two aspects to work simultaneously and in concert as one act.

Think and do are one. We might need (at times) to practice them as separate things, but we implement them as one thing.

The imagination places an order for a specific result and the well trained body responds by producing that result in the best way it can given the present level of experience and training.


Last edited by PH on Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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trplayer22
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But it doesn't matter if the muscular demand for a note is built into your embouchure. They'll play.


So, what are you thinking when you want to play a certain note? "I am going to play x note"? Do you believe that hearing the pitches increases accuracy?
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maynard-46
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:13 am    Post subject: Ear Abilities: Carmine vs. Others... Reply with quote

Quote:
Think and do are one.


This is one (of many) phrases that constantly sticks with me from Carmine. He used to preach to me NOT to over analyze...just do it and muscle memory (from his studies) will help me. But...on the other hand...he would also tell me to think and concentrate while doing his studies. So in reality, while playing, you ARE doing both...hence, "think and do are one". Sounded VERY simple when Carmine would explain it to me! That was one of the best things of CC teachings...he put/broke down EVERYTHING in a VERY simple, uncomplicated way. Kind of took the "mystery" out of playing the trumpet! Another "phrase" that has stayed with me..."you have to get a taste for every note you play" ESPECIALLY the ones you're having a hard time locking in on. My particular bugaboo notes were top line "F" and the "Ab" just above it. He'd have me breath attack them 40-50 times a day as soft as I could then, gradually, I added my tongue and more volume into the equation. It wasn't too long after I started doing these soft breath attacks that the "fear" of picking those notes off disappeared altogether. He was quite a man...and quite a teacher. I miss him!

Butch
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrpPro wrote:
But it doesn't matter if the muscular demand for a note is built into your embouchure.

This sentence could be read two different ways. The meaning should be,

"But it doesn't matter as long as the muscular demand for a note is built into your embouchure.
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trplayer22 wrote:
Do you believe that hearing the pitches increases accuracy?


Yes. Being able to combine an aural image with the muscular feel is as good as it gets!
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trplayer22
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes. Being able to combine an aural image with the muscular feel is as good as it gets!


Ok, cool. From my personal experience I can never play a note in tune, with the right sound unless I hear it. Otherwise I'm just shooting blind.
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trplayer22 wrote:
From my personal experience I can never play a note in tune, with the right sound unless I hear it. Otherwise I'm just shooting blind.

Is it fair to say that you have never done very much with the Caruso calisthenics?
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trplayer22
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it fair to say that you have never done very much with the Caruso calisthenics?


Not entirely true. My teacher studied with caruso and we did delve into the method. I felt at the time and still feel that it is not for me.
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PH
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trplayer22 wrote:
Quote:
Is it fair to say that you have never done very much with the Caruso calisthenics?


Not entirely true. My teacher studied with caruso and we did delve into the method. I felt at the time and still feel that it is not for me.


Then, with all due respect, what you have to say isn't particularly relevant in this forum dedicated to the teaching of Caruso.
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trplayer22
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Then, with all due respect, what you have to say isn't particularly relevant in this forum dedicated to the teaching of Caruso.


I extend my apologies to you if this upsets you. But I wanted to learn how it works for other people and why it didn't work for me. It was not my intent to bash the man nor the method, merely to enlighten myself. For me, it was when I stopped focusing on muscle control and focused on pitch that I began to figure the trumpet out. It was interesting to me that a method I thought was completely removed from pitch would foster pitch ability.

Caruso is a method that has been proven to be very effective. It is probably the very reason that pros like Laurie Frink still teach it today.


Have a good day.
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PH
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No offense taken. I just didn't want someone to mistakenly think that what you are saying reflects Carmine's teaching.

I agree with much of what you said. That is why in my post above I said, "Some people need more work on the mechanical and some need more work on the aural/imagination. Everyone needs to develop both aspects and every great player develops the ability for the two aspects to work simultaneously and in concert as one act. "

It sounds like you needed to work on the ears and imagination.
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