Whats is the purpose of a Sheperds Crook?

[klipschfan4life]

I have a cornet with a sheperds crook on it and i've been wondering....what is it suposed to do? Why do some of them have it and some don't? Why are some of the big manufacturers bringing back the sheperds crook into production? Just curious what deal is with the sheperds crook. Please share some light on the subject.

[rixtar]

I do believe it's there to shorten the horn.
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[Bob Stevenson]

Without wishing to be rude or unkind, I don't think there is a 'question' to answer. Cornets are just the way they are,...a design which owes much to it's forerunner, the cornopean. Here in England the term 'shepherds crook' was completely unknown until the advent of the internet and the American sites like this one. Before this there were only 'cornets' here anything else was a trumpet or very rarely an 'American cornet' to denote a non cornet design. This instrument was also known as a 'mezzo-trumpet', at least in Besson sales literature. Also sometimes as 'trumpet-cornet' Such instruments are never used in a British brass or military bands because these ensembles, for a variety of reasons, don't use trumpets.

My understanding is that in America, the 'real'cornet became dissused for many years and when interest turned back towards it a quite different semi-trumpet was invented because American players felt happier with something more like a trumpet in shape and sound. The recent resurgence of interest in real cornet has prompted the American phrase 'Shepherds crook' to apply to the real cornet.

[tom turner]

[Al Guraliuk]

In addition to my cornet my trumpet has a shepard's crook. Check the Joe's equipment at www.marcinkiewicz.com

The trumpet sounds beautiful and is more free flowing due the less resistance of the gentle curve of the shepard's crook ( and reverse tuning slide) .The notes slot well & pop out. It still screams when I need to. I LUV the Shepard's crook.
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Al Guraliuk
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[roynj]

I prefer cornet designs with a bell crook rather than without, and there are some great cornets being produced these days that are amazing bits of bent metal. Tom has already mentioned the Wild Thing cornet. I would also mention the Xeno Yamaha, Smith Watkins, Lawler, and Besson Prestige (are these back in production now?) are really amazing horns. Frankly, I cannot think of a straight bell cornet being made these days that I would want to have.

[Dave Mickley]

I have 3 cornets, one "shepard's crook" and two long bell. I have an Olds Am. and a 40's King Master, both which play very good and a new Weril Reg. short cornet that plays very well. The two long bell cornets have an "edge" to them where as the short cornet has a beautiful sweet mellow sound. Give me the short cornet any time. Dave
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formerly known as old geezer Dave
C7c,bell heat treated
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[klipschfan4life]

[bspickler]

[Dale Proctor]

I don't think a shepherd's crook does much to affect the sound of a cornet. It makes it a little shorter, and most short cornets have a longer leadpipe/bell ratio than do long cornets and trumpets. I think that's more important to sound production. Compare the tubing length from mouthpiece to 3rd valve on a true short cornet and a trumpet. The short cornet will be longer here, with a shorter bell.

Anyway, the use of a shepherd's crook bell today is mainly for looks, and is copied from the look of early cornets. Now, in early cornets, the shepherd's crook had a purpose - it was generally used to route the bell into a compact, easy to manage position. Look at the pic of my H. Lehnert cornet and you can see the usefulness of the crook.


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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[tyleman]

[tom turner]

[tom turner]

[Robert Rowe]

Hey, Tom (Turner) --

Without copying your lengthy dissertation, I admire your portrayal of the genesis of the Cornet in America.

My only other comment, is that I might refer to what you call "Honky-Tonks" ... as "Juke-Joints".

I'll admit to frequenting "Honky-Tonks" when I lived in Charlottesville and Staunton, Virginia ... but, only once visited a "Juke-Joint".

I won't reveal any details ... .

Yr Fthfl Srvnt,
Robt
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"Nuke 'em, Dub-Ya!"

[tom turner]

Hi Robert,

I too am guilty of frequenting a few myself . . . and of being guilty back in the '70s of being a certified "bar musician!"

Juke . . . 'til you Puke! That was the motto of a lot of folks back then, if I remember.

I'd gotten out of the army (as a bandsman) and returned to music school at FSU. Chomping at the bit to play a bunch, and wanting to make some extra money, I answered an audition ad to replace a trumpeter in a hard-working bar band . . . and soon was pounding it out six nights a week at a rough, "south-side" honky-tonk for months on end!" The pay was outstanding for the times too!

It was a wild time indeed . . . at least that's what they TOLD me when I sobered up!

Geez . . . 1975 . . . it seems such a long time ago! I was a "mature" 24 year-old back then. Here's a newspaper ad from the time . . .



Have a great weekend!

T.

PS: I'm the one behind the good lookin' chick singer.

PPS: Check out the hip "Leisure Suits" and the polyester shirts, wide lapels and wide-open shirts left opened up.

If you remember, it was really "cool" and sexy back then for men to have their shirts unbuttoned to show their manly, hairy chests!!! That was a great time for me . . . for I have more hair on my chest than Austin Powers!

The Leisure Suits were a cross in color between Mauve and Rust. "Groovy!"

[Robert Rowe]

Cool, Tom !

Brings back a lot of (almost forgotten) memories ....

I, too, played in a few "bar-bands" in about the same era. It was my return to playing Trumpet ... only, I was the keyboard player (mainly). I would "chord" with my left-hand on the organ, and play Trumpet with my right-hand. (Keyboards pitched in C, Trumpet in Bb -- can produce migraines) . . . Tunes like "In The Midnight Hour" ... we did a lot of "soul" tunes. Also, tunes from "The Electric Flag", "Blood, Sweat & Tears", "Chicago (Transit Authority)".

Our lead singer wasn't good-looking ... he looked like Earnest Borgnine ... (really!) ... but, he could really sing in that style.

I'll admit to having a few leisure-suits, as well. That polyester fabric always seemed to have little, round "burn-holes" in it ... wonder how that happened ?

I remember one, particular gig at a "Juke-Joint" (in Southern Maryland) ... where a fight erupted. Instantly, the whole place was a fight-scene ... just like in the movies. Guys were smashing chairs over people's heads, all the bottles behind the bar got shattered .... Luckily for us in the band, police arrived quickly ... the bandstand was back in a corner, and there was no exit door. All kinds of cops -- state police, sheriff's department, county police, town cops ... they hauled-off everybody in the bar (except us, in the band) in paddy-wagons.

I see on the newspaper ad you provided (cool !) the host was "Hoot Gibson". Don't hear that nick-name much these days. Years ago, nearly everyone named Gibson, aquired that nick-name from the movies Cowboy. Forty-eight cent "high-balls"! Don't hear "high-balls" much, either.

Yeah ... "back-in-the-day" ....

Thanks for the memories ....

BTW -- just got an e-mail from an "e-Pal" who lives in Lady Lake, Florida. Thankfully, his property was spared extensive damage from that storm yesterday. We've never met, but we correspond regularly via e-mail. I got a "near-mint" vintage Martin Committee medium-bore Trumpet from him, a few years ago. He's a "racer" ... has a shop there in Lady Lake ... getting ready for Daytona.

Those folks there in that area need our prayers.

All the best,
Robt

[markp]

Okay, I think I get it:

shepard's crook & deep,v-cup mouthpiece = soft, traditional cornet sound

long cornet & c-cup mouthpiece = louder, trumpet-like sound

How about using a long cornet with a deep, v-cup mouthpiece?

That's what I do, and I think it gives a great result. I use a Flip Oakes #5 old style mouthpiece with my King Master cornet. It is plenty loud, but there is no mistaking it for a trumpet. I prefer this sound to either the soft, traditional sound or the c-cup trumpety sound.

Does anyone else use a combination like this?

[Bob Stevenson]

Markp,

While that is working in the right direction for good cornet playing, I feel that it's worth pointing out that it's a dangerous simplification to suggest that "shepards crook and deep V mpc = traditional soft sound"....

One frequently reads on the predominantly American based sites such as this that the cornet sound is "traditional" and "soft" and that the 'secret' is the good old "deep V mpc".......all of these assumptions are at best only half truths.

Modern cornet method as found in UK Brass bands has developed greatly over the last 30 or so years and the typical old cornet sound as obtained with the old 'peashooter' cornets is rarely heard nowadays. Very few UK cornet players are still using "deep V" mpcs as most have moved on to modern recurved designs of various depths such as the Denis Wick range which were a key element in the sweeping changes to the brass band movement in the mid 1960's.

It seems to be a fond idea in other parts of the world that here in the UK brass bands are sitting in ancient bandrooms firmly sticking to the music and playing methods of the Victorian era. While there ARE a few bands like this and more than a few that are fiercely conservative, it's also true that the gas lamps and dark brown music from 1880 are long gone along with the quaint sound of cornets engraved with lillies of the valley and played by workmen with cloth caps.....I personally have not seen such a thing for,..oh, at least a couple of years now!

The thing to remember about really good cornet playing such as you can hear in the top 10 or so world class bands in the UK, is the extreme versatility and virtuosity. The typical 'cornet sound' as we know it is not just one type of voice but a whole range of tonal qualities on the instant command of the musical director,...at one moment bright and hard, at the next rich and glowing, plus many other musical needs of what is very demanding music.

In line with this the modern cornet is a much larger bore than those of 40 years ago and, if not actually 'built for speed' then certainly designed for extreme versatility.

[Dale Proctor]

[Bob Stevenson]

Hi Dale,

I seem to remember that I have posted very similar stuff on at least a couple of previous threads,...each time picked up and reinforced by yourself!

Perhaps if we keep going with enough determination, between us we will eventually get this message across!