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oxleyk
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
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 Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | | Great post. I've listened to quite a few British brass band recordings, and there is a tremendous range of tone colorings to be found from piece to piece. Not just one "cornet sound", and certainly not the deep mouthpiece flugel sound that many in the U.S. think is the proper cornet tone. |
In the summer of 1980 I went on a high school band tour to Europe. I heard the Royal Scots Guard band play on the grounds of Windsor Castle. Having just graduated from a hick school in Indiana I was mostly uneducated in the various aspects of traditional British band music and was unaware of all the tonal characteristics. I just remember the cornets being just as piercing and laser-like as any trumpet, when they needed to be.
It was through a contact in the Scots band that a group of us were able to see the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace, from INSIDE the gates. That was so cool.
Kent |
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Bob Stevenson wrote: | | ...Perhaps if we keep going with enough determination, between us we will eventually get this message across! |
Yes, there are probably a few of us on this forum who agree on this point. I remember hearing an "all-star" brass band from Great Britain at the Great American Brass Band Festival a few years ago. I think it was made up of Salvation Army band members from the London area. Anyway, I was completely blown away by the sound! Our band followed them on stage, unfortunately - a tough act to follow. I developed an appreciation for brass band music, and joined the first brass band formed in our state a few years afterward.
There are, of course, other uses for a cornet besides brass band, and the tonal characteristics can be varied to suit the venue. The "one size fits all" mentality of cornet tone is the problem. A cornet doesn't have to sound dark, or flugel-like. Leave that to the flugelhorns. I like the tone of an American long cornet played with a "C" cup mouthpiece, too, if it's used in the right context, such as dixieland or concert band.
Back to the original question, I think the total design of a short cornet determines its characteristic sound, not just the extra curve in the bell.
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kehaulani
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob Stevenson wrote: | | Very few UK cornet players are still using "deep V" mpcs as most have moved on to modern recurved designs of various depths such as the Denis Wick range which were a key element in the sweeping changes to the brass band movement in the mid 1960's. |
Bob, what would you say would be a moderately sized/configured mouthpiece for the average intermediate player entering into BB playing?
I realise "it's the player not the equipment", "try before you buy" and all that. But if I asked, "Bob, which Wick mpc should I start on? My present trumpet mpc is a moderate 7C sized mpc." You would answer _____?
Thanks.
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Bob Stevenson
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| For trumpet players starting on cornet with no previous experience (my current band has had a couple of these) I recommend a DW 4B for about 6 months of busy brass band playing on the end of the front row, and then to try out a DW 3 or 3B, and see how things go thereafter. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob Stevenson wrote: | | For trumpet players starting on cornet with no previous experience (my current band has had a couple of these) I recommend a DW 4B for about 6 months of busy brass band playing on the end of the front row, and then to try out a DW 3 or 3B, and see how things go thereafter. |
Ah,, you stepped up like a man and gave me a specific answer to an age-old question. I'm proud of you.  Thanks, Bob.
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nieuwguyski
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Ah,, you stepped up like a man and gave me a specific answer to an age-old question. |
...And on a resurrected thread over four years old, to boot.
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Old thread. Simple answer. Larger radii keep the edge out of the sound further into the higher volume range so the sound "spikes" later and requires higher energy for it to get there. Result? a more lyrical, less frenetic sound. Good for gentle styles. Too feminine for aggressive styles.
My head isn't wrapped around the cornet sound, yet. Give me a trumpet to "sing" through. But, let me "duet" with a certain cornet. Sort of a dream girl singing from somewhere deep inside and far away... The Diva.
Brian
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brassbow
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Ok just to ad a spin on things. Back in the day many cornet players had a very bright sound. So why play cornet instead of trumpet?
For myself the articulation is cleaner on a cornet. I use a bach 12 cornet mp with an adaptor for my trumpet. And before that I had a bach 7c for my trumpet and a Wick 5 for my cornet. No mater what mouthpiece I use trumpet articulation is not as clean as the cornet.
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Bob Stevenson
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| Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Just to add a little clarification;.....It takes at least 6 months of playing on a particular mpc to really get used to it and find out about it's possibilities in cornet playing. A 4B is a good choice for 'most' players to get started with, even if it's not ultimately 'the one' as it sits in the middle of the range and has no nasty cons etc........
..........The worst part about this is getting trumpet players to just play the 4B for 6 months without chopping and changing mpcs! |
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GordonH
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | | Bob Stevenson wrote: | Markp,
While that is working in the right direction for good cornet playing,....
....the modern cornet is a much larger bore than those of 40 years ago and, if not actually 'built for speed' then certainly designed for extreme versatility. |
Great post. I've listened to quite a few British brass band recordings, and there is a tremendous range of tone colorings to be found from piece to piece. Not just one "cornet sound", and certainly not the deep mouthpiece flugel sound that many in the U.S. think is the proper cornet tone. |
Been saying that for years, but its a bit like banging my head off a brick wall!
Fact is that hardly anyone can play on a Wick no letter mouthpiece in a brass band solo cornet line. They are fine for playing the odd solo but too difficult for tutti playing unless you don't have to work for a living - even then they have insufficient attack. Most solo cornet sections are on the 3B/4B mouthpieces or Yamahas or Warburtons. Quite a variety of mouthpieces being used these days, and a variety of sounds. |
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Robert Rowe
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Do you really believe the audiences -- aside from other horn players -- really notice ... or gives a rat's-arse ?
I mean -- C'mon, now. Really ?
 
~ r2 ~
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GordonH
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| Robert Rowe wrote: | Do you really believe the audiences -- aside from other horn players -- really notice ... or gives a rat's-arse ?
I mean -- C'mon, now. Really ?
~ r2 ~ |
Adjudicators have very little interest in sound timbre. They seem interested in accuracy, intonation and interpretation in that order. |
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Robert Rowe
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:17 am Post subject: |
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I feel compelled to throw some "cold water" (analogy for "REALITY") upon threads of this ilk, when they get ... well ... dunno (?). "ANAL" ?
Apparently, some here have waaaaay too much time on their hands.
AND, there are others that (to use analogies, again) would turn a friendly game of checkers, into a chess-match. OR -- a simple child's puzzle into a Rubik's Cube.
I really don't "get it", I have to admit.
I actually do not think anyone cares what I think. That's OK, too. 
Fifty years from now, it will never make any difference, anyhow.
~ r2 ~ 
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VetPsychWars
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Considering they have competitions and work very hard to win them, I guess it's true... you don't get it.
Normally I'm on your side with the "lighten up" but in this case... I'm not.
Tom
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GordonH
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Some brass band players do nothing else. They are married to women in the bands and all their families are in them. Its their entire lives. It has to be with two or three (or more) rehearsals per week. |
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Teleugeot
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| tom turner wrote: |
The beautiful, soaring parts though, were played on the sweet sounding (shepherd's crook) cornets. Many a young girls heart was stolen by a handsome hotshot soloist fronting a band at a county fair or cornet competition.
You were right too . . . there was NO NEED to call 'em shepherd's crook cornets either . . . for all cornets had the crook held over from the cornopeans.
THEN CAME THE AMERICAN WHORE HOUSE/HONKY-TONK MUSIC CRAZE . . .
When that bawdy Dixieland Jazz took off, in the whorehouses of New Orleans in the 1920's , it was soon discovered that the gentle, sweet and very dignified "shepherd's crook" cornets simply lacked the punch and power to rise above the shouts and conversations drunken masses who were there to have a good time. There were no electronic PA systems back then either to amplify the instruments . . . and even the sternest and most wilting British stare could have made the rowdy audiences be quiet and listen.
Then Louis Armstrong and others playing cornets in the brothels switched to the "vulgar" trumpets, in order to be heard better, and suddenly lots of Americans who dug jazz started taking up the trumpet.
I guess it was a natural trend, but Conn and other American makers started putting "trumpet bells" on "cornets." Doing so, a kid starting out could STILL be able to play the better "cornet" parts in school bands, unlike if he'd bought a trumpet . . . and yet could get more power and projection than the other cornetists, almost like if playing a trumpet! My 1939 Conn Victor immediately comes to mind . . . its an American long bell cornet that, I'll swear, sounds just like a trumpet.
Heck, a long bell "cornet" could get "bawdy" in a honky tonk on a Saturday night . . . and play all sobered up and dignified at church on Sunday too!
Eventually, some American "cornets," especially a few models by the biggest company (Conn), differed from the identical-looking trumpet model ONLY by what receiver was placed on the leadpipe. One of 'em (the "A" model) took a "cornet" mouthpiece and the other ("B" model) took a trumpet mouthpiece. BIG DIFFERENCE!
Alas, by the '60s we Yanks were all playing our "cornets" using cornet mouthpieces with Bach trumpet tops too! They had bright-sounding, trumpet-type "C" cups . . . and the "American long bell Cornet" became virtually indistinguishable in blind tests from the F. Besson type trumpets most all of us play today.
Since a long bell cornet lacks a little power vs. it's trumpet counterpart, and with the rise of Maynard, Bill Chase, Al Hirt, Bud B., Herb Alpert and many more into popular music in the '60s, the old mixed breed long bell cornet quickly fell from grace in America school band programs and died.
HEY . . . MAYBE WE YANKS HAVE SOME CLASS AFTER ALL!
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What your anecdote lacked in factual accuracy it more than made up for in entertainment value |
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Bob Stevenson
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Leaving aside adjudicators and contest playing, I think it actually DOES matter. I was taught that anything worth doing is worth doing well and there is no doubt that brass bands reached their highest world development in England for a reason. There is quite simply a level of discernment here among both players and many ordinary English people that has resulted in some quite exquisite cornet virtuosity here......
....I've posted video of Laura Hirst here before and will not do so again,...but those who remember those clips will be able to judge whether her musicianship is "anal" or not, and she is by no means alone in her virtuasity here in the UK. |
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GordonH
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Bob Stevenson wrote: | Leaving aside adjudicators and contest playing, I think it actually DOES matter. I was taught that anything worth doing is worth doing well and there is no doubt that brass bands reached their highest world development in England for a reason. There is quite simply a level of discernment here among both players and many ordinary English people that has resulted in some quite exquisite cornet virtuosity here......
....I've posted video of Laura Hirst here before and will not do so again,...but those who remember those clips will be able to judge whether her musicianship is "anal" or not, and she is by no means alone in her virtuasity here in the UK. |
think I have told the story before of the town I used to live in where there were a dozen or more high school kids who could play through all the stuff at the back of the Arban! |
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Robert Rowe
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Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob Stevenson wrote: | | ..."anal" or not, and she is by no means alone in her virtuasity here in the UK. |
@ Stevenson ~
You missed my point.
My comments were NOT directed at UK Cornet / BBB-players.
They were meant to bring attention to US ... WE, TH'ers ... posters..
Too bad we don't have a "Beating-a-dead-horse" emoticon to insert here.
The original post-topic devolved into pontificating abut BBB-players, mouthpiece selection, and Heaven only knows what else.
This is not uncommon here. Matter-of-fact, it is sometimes entertaining. I usually "un-check" the notification box. Should have done so, earlier. Am NOW doing so.
'Bye-Bye' 
~ r2 ~
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blbaumgarn
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 10:05 pm Post subject: What is the purpose of a shepherds crook? |
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Some wonderful contributions here on the subject, as usual. Until I got to college my experience playing cornets was trading with a few people in select band so I could try their King and they could try my Connstellation 36b. In college I was given a Getzen 800 eterna for symphonic band. After a few days playing it I used the cornet for lessons and every bit of practice, save lab band. I also had a little experience with a Schilke A1 long cornet. It still had a less pronounced crook, and had a wonderful warm tone. It would also project more than the Getzen but both were great. I was aware using the Eterna that my play was improving and that I felt the cornet was much easier to progress through technical passages easily. When I played juries at the end of my first year the french horn teacher commented "playing as a solost much improved, technical skills much much improved." I think it was the Getzen for sure. I had a 25 year love affair with a Benge 5x, but the most fun ever playing horn was with that "honky tonk" cornet.
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