Type IV & Mouthpiece Size

Bleek · Regular Member Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Posts: 29

I hope this is not a silly question. I tried doing a search on the forum but could not find the answer...

If someone is a type IV would they benefit more from a larger mouthpiece like a 1 1/2C or 2C? Does mouthpiece size matter in the pivot system?

Thanks for any thoughts you may have.

Bleek · Regular Member Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Posts: 29

I think I found my answer here...

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=239713

Sounds like it depends on what a qualified teacher sees when you're playing...

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject:

Reinhardt was a trombone player, and (to the best of my knowledge) gave good mouthpiece advice to trombone players. From stories I've heard over the past couple decades since he's been gone, that wasn't always true about trumpet players.

The one thing he told me as a trumpet player that I still follow to this day was to "play the smallest mouthpiece you can get away with;" that is, don't sacrifice everything to play a bent dime mpc, but play something sensible. As a jazz player who occasionally plays some lead, the Bob Reeves 43C3 that I play is about as "small" as I've been able to comfortably go.

I still play bass trumpet using a Bach 12E trombone mouthpiece, and whenever my Reeves starts feeling big, all I have to do is play some bass trumpet, and voila! It feels right again.

For an upstream player, I do remember him saying that IV's could get away with playing rather large mouthpieces, and many of them absolutely need them to keep their sound from being too doggone bright.

Mouthpiece size does matter in the Pivot System, but not as much as a hundred other more important things. In fact, I've had students that I never even looked at what mouthpiece they play. If they're struggling to get out of the staff, I may inquire, but if things are progressing nicely I don't even consider it.
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Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Its just like Rich said.......

Reinhardt believed that all too many upstream players use a mp that is too shallow and too small. He said that the upstream sound is bright enough on its own, and too small of a mp just gives the upstreamer a thin nasal sound.

I have a sheet from Reinhardt about "the pitfalls of the upstream types" where he talks about this.

Chris

Bleek · Regular Member Joined: 14 Apr 2003 Posts: 29

Rich and Chris -- thanks very much for your response to this post. It was just what I was looking for.

My sound definitely gets bright when I start to play in the upper register. Drives me nuts. I remember a while back that my teacher suggested that I move to a larger piece but I never asked why. He was familiar the Reinhardt system and talked about the pivot all the time. Perhaps this was his reason. I still work with him so I may inquire.

I've been hesitant to move to a bigger piece because of range and endurance concerns. If anything I've been thinking about adding mass or getting a deeper cup. I'd like to avoid the later. I'm playing on a 3C equivalent (Warburton 4MC).

Your information is extremely helpful. Thanks very much.

mulligan stew · Heavyweight Member Joined: 02 Jul 2003 Posts: 1846

crzytptman · Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject:

Hey Rich - can you describe some of the advise Doc gave to trombonists? I have no idea what type I am, but am curious about mpcs.
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BeboppinFool · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:16 am Post subject:

Maybe some of of the resident bass clef Reinhardt guys will chime in. That's a huge question with answers too numerous and too long for me to be typing.

Doug Elliot, Dave Wilken, Bill Gibson, where are you?
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PivotBone · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject:

Doc was generally a fan of large mouthpieces for trombone. In particular, he believed that IIIAs would be best suited with larger rims but without going with a larger cup and backbore. Doug Elliott has taken this concept and run with it, making interchangable rims, cups, and backbores. This enables a player to chose a rim that matches his/her embouchure and match it with a cup and shank that are consistant with the instrument being played and the sound desired.

crzytptman · Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:04 am Post subject:

Thanks. So, wide but not neccessarily deep or with a large bbore? I have heard of Elliott - I'll check him out.
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PivotBone · Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:05 am Post subject:

Well, more correctly, a rim to match your face and a cup and shank to match the instrument/music. A wide rim isn't going to be correct for every player. You can contact Doug via email if you would like. He has been very helpful to me and many others in these regards.

Mikeytrpt · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: .

airdyn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 579

Mikeytrpt · Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:53 am Post subject:

Thanks Dave. That is very helpful. I will be ordering some of those books soon.

I'm trying to settle on a Reeves/Purviance P-10. The rim seems flatter than normal, with a good inner bite. It feels secure on my 3 legs, without locking the chops down.

I'm also waiting for a Curry 600 series 60M. I've heard those also have flatter rims.

Mike

bg · Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:10 am Post subject:

I know, I know; this is a very old thread!!!!

Question: Do you successful type IV guys have a preference between bowl shaped or V cups?
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Doug Elliott · Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:17 am Post subject:

I am not one of those players, but my initial thought is that more of a bowl would encourage a lower placement which would be an advantage to most IV's.

I think it is very useful to think of IV's as being upside-down IIIA's, and that many of the same rules apply. The natural tendencies are for an easy high range, more difficult low range, and a bright sound, so bigger mouthpieces can be useful to counteract those things.

cperret · Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:22 pm Post subject: Another 2 cents...

I wouldn't say I qualify yet as a 'successful' IV, but I'm working on it... I have been steadily moving to larger mouthpieces 3 years as a type IV. I started on something around a Bach 10 1/2C (I think), and have moved through various mouthpieces to a 3C, and am currently playing a Kanstul copy Monette B4S. (Slightly wider than a 3C.)

I didn't notice any range or endurance problems with each switch. In fact, there came a point where my range and, especially, my sound would start to get too nasal and squirrely, and I felt I was 'ready' for a change. When I tried a bit larger mouthpiece, I found everything improved. It was only when I tried playing on a Bach 1 1/4C for a while that I found my sound started to get 'tubby' and range suffered a bit, so I backed off on the diameter.

I found it very important to make sure each larger mouthpiece was sitting low enough on my chops. That is to say, each subsequently larger mouthpiece would have to be centered a little lower than the last. If not, it would start feeling too much like a 50/50 placement, and nothing would work properly.

I'm still searching for a mouthpiece for 'jazz' work. Even on a Bach 3C or Monette B4S, I'm pretty darn bright, and by the end of a long rehearsal, my tone can become very thin and strident.

As to Brad Goode's question, I have dabbled with a Heim 2 I have kicking around, which is quite 'V' cuped, and I really like the sound for small group work, but I can't quite fit my chops into it. If there isn't enough undercut, my chops just fill the cup up. A work in progress... Thanks for listening! (Er, reading.)

cperret · Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:57 pm Post subject:

I'm sorry, I hope I haven't hijacked or killed this thread! I would love to hear from the experienced IV's...

Doug Elliott · Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:07 pm Post subject:

I'm happy to hear to that your experience parallels what I have been thinking, and my experience with Type IV students.

JoshMizruchi · Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject:

I personally don't like super-shallow mouthpieces. Then again, I may be an odd duck because I have pretty big lips and use a lot of lip in the cup. What tends to happen when I play a really shallow cup, like say a 6a4a, is that I find there's not enough resistence to slot the notes properly which doesn't make for good music. The smallest mouthpiece I feel comfortable playing that I know of is a Warburton 5S. Our friend Chris L. inspired me to try one, and Wayne Bergeron told me he used to use it as well. For anything else, I like a 3C. I like mouthpieces that give my lips room to have control, because as a type IV, control issues can rear their ugly head if you're not careful. Especially in the upper register.
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