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Type IV & Mouthpiece Size


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bg
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Josh,

I'm a 3B, but also have trouble with bottoming out on shallow mouthpieces.
I was successfully playing a Warburton 6s for many years, but the post- fire 6s is unusable for me; they've changed the alpha angle and depth.

The last few years I've been using a custom Karl Hammond cup, where I've had him make a very straight drop off the rim, a "steep alpha angle". This prevents the bottoming out for me.
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem Brad. As to your question of V-shape vs. bowl for upstream players, I can only speak for myself but I prefer a bowl because the V seems to kind of "get in the way" of my chops. I'm not sure if that's type-related. I don't mind a V if it's a good fit, but I just prefer a bowl.

On that note, I am remembering the lesson I took with you about 7 years ago. You were playing a Warburton 4SV IIRC and were even nice enough to let me try it. That was a big help for me because I learned there were shallow mouthpieces out there I could actually play. Back then I used a 3C for everything. I remember your lead trumpet playing that day, it was a joy to hear. You were putting out so much sound, I guess it makes sense you're a IIIB! In all the registers, too!

I liked the 4SV, but the rim I normally played on is more like the 5 and I was used to a bowl so 5S was a good fit. I also used a 6ES for a bit. Had its moments but I think it was a little too shallow for me.

After those experiences, I think I learned the lesson Reinhardt would've wanted me to learn. To just find a good mouthpiece, stick with it and FORGET about what I was playing on. I went through such a time, trying all kinds of mouthpieces. I had the same problems on ALL OF THEM. I never found the "magic mouthpiece", I just spent dozens of dollars shipping stuff to and from Dillons. The magic mouthpiece was what I already had and the magic answer was to keep studying the encyclopedia and practice more intelligently.

In the encyclopedia Doc mentions that some students "Continually experiment with different model mouthpieces, instruments of various bores, embouchure formations and lip-exercising gadgets, to name a few of the techniques employed by the escapist." That line is pretty funny, and true. Hopefully that helps keep this thread Doc-related. Sorry for the long post.
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg wrote:
Thanks Josh,

I'm a 3B, but also have trouble with bottoming out on shallow mouthpieces.
I was successfully playing a Warburton 6s for many years, but the post- fire 6s is unusable for me; they've changed the alpha angle and depth.

The last few years I've been using a custom Karl Hammond cup, where I've had him make a very straight drop off the rim, a "steep alpha angle". This prevents the bottoming out for me.


Hi Brad,

I never really took a super close look at you on those youtubes but I always thought you were a IIIA. Your placement always looked pretty high for a IIIB. But then again as Doc used to say......."You can't be sure of anything until you actually see it".

I personally really like the "New" 6S, I think it has even more room in the cup than the old 6S. Heres the thing........you have to go through a few of them to get a "good" one. The one I have has a perfect undercut with plenty of room for the chops. The only thing that bothers me a little about the mp is I feel that the entrance to the throat could have been "choked" a little more. It seems that you need to use a tighter backbore to get good results, you need to get the resistance from somewhere.

Chris
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bg
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Chris, I might try a few more, if I have the chance!

It's probably hard to see anything on grainy videos, but my placement is extremely low; very little upper lip in the cup.

bg
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad,

I just watched one of your "skeleton mouthpiece" videos, and you look like a IV (or a very low IIIB). In any case, you definitely "pull down to ascend", so you're not a IIIA.

But you also do some free buzzing in the clip, and that looks decidedly downstream. Can you free buzz "into" the horn, or is it possible that you free buzz downstream but play upstream?
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bg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul,

I can "walk in and out" of the buzz very easily. Also, with the skeleton mouthpiece, you can feel which direction the air is exiting. In my case, it's
downward.

I will say this re. typing myself: It took a long time. My teeth are perfectly even, horn angle nearly straight. I've messed around with switching types in the past, and it's possible for me, but downstream seems to work the most naturally.
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bg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is pretty recent; a friend filmed it at our local restaurant gig:

Link

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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are players with almost a perfectly flat even surface to their teeth. And its true........many of them can play as IIIA, IIIB and IV. It sometimes takes them years to settle on one type because they can play so many different ways.

Kenny Smukle told me that he could play "all the types". He said that Doc originally typed him as a strait I (one). To be a type I you have to have upper and lower teeth where the insicors meet perfectly flush when the teeth are clenched (that is very, very rare). So in the type I's case the airstream is completely based on mp placement, they must either place very high or very low. Anything close to a half and half never works out unless they decide to recede to jaw on purpose, then they could probably work as a IIIB.

Chris L
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bg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, what I meant by "perfectly even" is just that, incisors perfectly flush when clenched.

What ultimately straightened me out as a downstream player was that it provides the best endurance (by far). Before I realized this, I went back and forth quite a bit!
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg wrote:
This is pretty recent; a friend filmed it at our local restaurant gig:
Code:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSmHf-oSdwY&feature=related[/youtube]

You need to train your audience to wait for the bass solo before they talk to each other.



Nice playing, great tune . . . who needs a piano?
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jwilson46
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You need to train your audience to wait for the bass solo before they talk to each other.

I can't wait to send this to my bass playing friends. Thanks, Rich



Brad looks IIIA to me. He has very little motion but I'm sure I saw IIIA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIuPstTQtME&feature=related

It is more noticeable in the low register. I'm guessing that as he ascends his upper lip reaches down (but he doesn't pull down) which is why he bottoms out on shallow mouthpieces. This is similar to what I do. I need a bit more room in the cup as a IIIA. I fought the IIIB vs IIIA battle for years. I could even play very high notes if I played as a IV....and I use the word "play" loosely. The rest of my playing was so bad that I quit doing it just for the sake of a high note. I was a decent player as a IIIB but better as a IIIA.....thanks to Doug Elliott.

I discovered that I had the urge to switch pivots when I over pivoted, especially in the lower range. This is when things would fall apart. I concentrate on the lower pivot by not dropping my head or raising the bell of my horn. This makes correct inhalations and keeping the four legs in place at all times a reality for me. It also keeps me honest in the middle and upper ranges

Brad,

In the late 60s I asked Doc about mouthpiece playing. He wasn't dead set against it but generally didn't encourage it because most players don't play the same with the mouthpiece away from the horn. I don't know how he felt about skeletal mouthpieces but then again I'm not sure they were around at that time.

Your chops appear to be working great. I think Reinhardt would tell you to continue what you are doing and don't worry about it.

Sometimes I would warm up on the mouthpiece on the way to a gig. Personally it didn't seem to work for me. I was better off waiting until I got to the gig and then playing a few warm up notes......with a mute if need be.

I read an interview with Maynard where he said that Slide Hampton would tell other players that Maynard took his horn out of the case and could play immediately. Maynard laughed and said that when driving into NYC he had his horn in his right hand and warmed up. I've done this but I don't think it is a good idea....especially on crowded freeways. Or now that I'm retired in Montana the danger is deer, elk, big horn sheep, bear or moose that maybe in the road.

Just so you don't think I'm completely in the sticks, Vizzutti played a recital here a month ago. Missoula, Mt. is where he grew up. At the end of April Arturo Sandoval will appear at the University Jazz Festival. Two years ago they had James Morrison. The festival also includes well known jazz artists on other instruments. They are serious about the arts out here.

John
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, everything sounds like it's working very well.

My "not IIIA" assessment was based on this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXfzvLONoRo&feature=related

Particularly from 4:10 to 4:40, that's where it looks like pulling down (and to the left) to ascend. Brad's head tilts up a bit as he ascends, which helps disguise the motion a little bit.

In any case, there's very little up-down motion!
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bg
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, I didn't want to turn this into a discussion about my classification, but thanks everyone, for all of the interest and expertise.

Paul is correct, I do track down and to the left to ascend, although to me it "feels" like I'm sometimes moving straight to the left.
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Brad,

I need to make a correction........

It was not the 6S that I was talking about, but the 6ES. You will be amazed at how much more room the 6ES has in it than the strait 6S. It sounds a$$ backwards I know but the ES cup has way more undecut than the regular S and is just about the same depth.


The new 6Es is one of Warburtons best all around stock models (for commercial playing obviously)

Chris L
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bg
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK; I've had a little time to think about all of this and;

1. No question; I'm a type I. My teeth are dead even when biting. Over the years, I tried to play with various placements, and only either very high or very low have worked well.

2. Over the last few years, I've found that the very low placement provides better control and endurance for me, so I've decided to stick with this.

Here's my question:

I sometimes have difficulty keeping the lower lip from wandering out of the mouthpiece. Should I be anchoring on the lower lip, rather than the upper?
I've messed with the idea, and it provides some intriguing results, but I'm not sure that this is the right direction to move in.

Thanks for your advice, guys!
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bg
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here it is, several months later, and I'm still pondering the previously posted question. Any advice will be appreciated.

bg
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "anchoring", Brad, but I'm pretty sure Reinhardt always encouraged people to use a good deal of solid pressure on the bottom lip (the bottom "legs" for an upstream type). I have one upstream student who's benefited quite a bit from this idea.

I've seen that advice repeated here, too, so I would imagine it can't possibly hurt your playing.

Depending on what kind of issue exactly you're having, learning to free buzz (downstream, not the way you play) could help strengthen the bottom lip, too.

If I'm wrong about either of these things, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will correct me shortly.
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg wrote:
2. Over the last few years, I've found that the very low placement provides better control and endurance for me, so I've decided to stick with this.

Here's my question:

I sometimes have difficulty keeping the lower lip from wandering out of the mouthpiece.


To me, "very low placement" means a lot of bottom lip; so how is it that your LOWER lip is wandering OUT of the mouthpiece? Did you mean something different from my interpretaion?
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bg
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm placing very low on my upper lip, almost no upper lip in the cup. When I focus on anchoring on the bottom teeth, I get a lower placement there, as well, and see tremendous benefits in range, control and compression. However, old habits tend to eventually make the teeth open and the mouthpiece ride up onto a more rolled-out lower lip; this feels more comfortable and sustainable, but doesn't work as well. I'm having a hard time deciding which one of these options will work best moving forward. Thanks in advance for your responses.

Confused Type I Guy, bg.
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Paul T.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds familiar to me, as well. I'm a IIIA, so my placement is very high, but I also experiment with how much lower lip to have in the mouthpiece. Having a slightly more "open" setting (less lower lip in the mouthpiece) is easier, more comfortable, more familiar. Putting more lip in the mouthpiece, however, feels stronger, more compression, more "pucker".

I'm slowly gravitating over to the more "closed" setting, I think it gives me more advantages in the long run, and I have a feeling that it's what Reinhardt would have recommended, too.

Using good, solid pressure on the bottom "legs" really helps maintain that, of course.
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