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Beautiful Shot of Red Rodney with a Reinhardt Mouthpiece


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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Beautiful Shot of Red Rodney with a Reinhardt Mouthpiece Reply with quote

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/I?gottlieb:27:./temp/~ammem_l9HB::displayType=1:m856sd=gottlieb:m856sf=07481:@@@
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revmklyons
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cool.

Since seeing this I have had Red Rodney's album Fiery playing from youtube. The whole album is there. A master.

A reinhardt student? there are some video's of him...mechanics look solid. His teeth were a challenge I bet. Good thing kids didn't get braces back then!
It would have really messed him up!

keith
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly shoots down the notion that perfect teeth are necessary for playing trumpet.

What's the story on the Reinhardt pieces? I know about the plastic ones but didn't know he had brass pieces also.

Kent
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red had a pretty bad H habit. He did time at the Federal Narcotics Prison/Hospital in Lexington KY.

By the late 1960's early 70's Red had lost all of his teeth. The lifestyle of an H user contributed to this greatly. You start not brushing your teeth regularly. You nod off with food in you your mouth sometimes, plus H gives you an incredible taste for sweets.

At some point Red was driving a truck for a living then in the early to mid 1970's Red got a full set of (upper and lower) dental implants.

He came back on trumpet with a vengeance! He actually played better with the implants then with his own teeth. He was never really a high note player, but when I saw him live in 1980 he was WAILING high G's and A's all over his solos. Ira Sullivan could not believe it....... he called Red "Mighty Mite".

Unlike his real teeth that you see in the early picture that I posted, Reds new implant teeth were perfectly strait and flat with no spaces. I got a chance to hang with him a little bit here and there but I never got really tight with him or anything.

I did ask him about Reinhardt and all he ever said was "The man was a very good teacher".

From the look of Brad Goode's website it seems like he and Red may have had something special going, I'm sure when he reads this he'll chime in. Its a shame Red didn't live to be older because he retired to the very same city that I live in, Boca Raton. I have never been shy about calling on famous players, asking them questions and just generally making a little pest of myself until we get friendly.

Rest in peace Red, you were one of the really great ones.

Chris LaBarbera
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bg
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great photo!

Red did study with Reinhardt. I do remember Red once telling me that Clifford Brown asked him for lessons in Philadelphia, and Red refused to teach him, instead insisting he see Reinhardt. Red said that Clifford came to his door and said "I want to learn from the man who plays with Charlie Parker." I don't remember him saying much else regarding Doc, but other people have told me that Red once assisted him for a short time.

When I knew him, and in most of the other shots I've seen of him, he played an Al Cass. He always referred to it as his "Buck Rodgers" mouthpiece. (I assumed this meant you could get to the stratosphere with it. ) After he passed, his widow Helene gave it to me. It is a 3X3 model. I took it to Karl Hammond a few years back, and had him custom make a copy of it with my rim (Warburton 6). This is the mouthpiece I've been playing lead on for the last few years. The high G is money in the bank.

Red's dental implants were a gift from Ray Kopczyk, a professor of dentistry at the University of Kentucky. When Red was incarcerated there, (as you mentioned earlier), Vince DiMartino somehow got permission sign him out of prison for the day, on occasion. Vince arranged for the dental work. This literally saved Red's career, and as you stated, the way he played afterward was phenomenal.

Recently, I agreed to be interviewed by a former student, who just asked me to talk about several people I was associated with early in my career. The first person he asked about was Red. The interview does get a bit long, but you may find it an interesting read if you're interested in Jazz:

http://goteamband.com/blog/2012/11/16/brad-goode-interview

bg
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a guy in Philadelphia, Larry McKenna (great jazz tenor saxophonist), who knew Red way back in the day and told me tons of great stories about him and his reputation around Philly back then . . . such as Red once faking his death to get insurance money.

Also, Chris Potter told me the story about Red "impersonating an officer" and even immortalized the story in a tune he wrote called General Rodney that's on Chris's first Criss-Cross recording.

By the way, Then and Now (Red's final recording) is a must-have album, including some commentary (in an "interview" by Bob Belden) at the end of the record.

Red left a great legacy in the music, and was quite the character as well.

Thanks Chris and Brad!
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Brad,

I'm always a sucker for old stories about the "great ones". I got very close to Billy Butterfield and Vinnie Tanno was like family to me. Its funny you should say "Buck Rogers" mp. Once I brought a BelAire Rite Cup mouthpiece over to Vinnies house and he called it the very same thing.......a "Buck Rogers" mp. Your recent post is the very first time in close to 35 years I've heard anybody call a mp that since Vinnie.

Vinnie had great stories about everybody.......He was on Dorseys band with Charlie Shavers, he was on Hamp's band with Leo The Whistler and many more. Don Goldie had great stories too, mostly about Louie.

Hey, I'm curious...... was Reds Al Cass small and shallow? I remember Ira Sullivan telling me that he had a mp he really loved with a rim that was as "flat as a penny" and he loaned it to Red and he never got it back. I always suspected it could have been a Reinhardt mp because Doc was a nut when it came to flat rims. Some of Doc's trumpet mps the rims are so flat they are unplayable. They look as if somebody put then on a lathe, made as many passes so that the bubble in a carpenters level would be dead center, then just touched the inside and outside edges with a little light sandpaper. No contour whatsoever, just flatter than a marble table top..........truly ridiculous.

I've rambled on a little here, but don't forget about my mp question....Thanks Brad.

Always the best to you....

Chris
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah Brad, I'm also curious about Red's Cass piece... Might be interesting to contact Karl and get my own rim put on it.

Chris - Did Vinnie every tell you anything about Leo Shepherd? He seems like such a mysterious character who just kind of disappeared...
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revmklyons
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the history, guys. That is too cool.

You can tell from his pic that he would be mischievous, a red headed trait in my experience.

I often wondered what and how you could play with dental implants.

Lots of musicians, myself included, have had addiction issues. I am glad to have lived through it. Good to hear another comeback story.

Keith
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Jeff
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad... you mention Vince getting Red out of jail for a bit. I've heard some wonderful stories of Vince's kindness and generosity. He's certainly not perfect, none of us are. However, as a friend of mine once said "he's flawed, but fabulous!" and I wish more folks would tell stories of Vince helping them out personally and professionally.
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bg
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris,

The Al Cass mouthpiece has, perhaps, the most rounded rim I've ever seen. Not a flat spot on it! It is fairly shallow, and definitely a bit of a modified v-cup.

I seem to remember Ira taliking about that mythical mouthpiece also, but I'm not sure which one it was. The mouthpiece story I most hear from Ira is about how Paul Serrano modified the cup of Ira's 10 1/2 c by turning a dime around and around inside it. Not sure what to make of that, but Ira has brought it up on many occasions.

I was thinking about Red again, and remembered that he had a page of the Claude Gordon book that he used as a warm-up every day, and he really swore by it. I don't know where he picked that up, or how much it has in common with Reinhardt, but there it is.

Also, Red really believed in playing tight mouthpieces and horns. When I first met him, he looked at my Bach Strad and my 7c mouthpiece with a combination of disgust and disbelief and said " Come on man, don't you know that ALL jazz players play small horns and tight mouthpieces?" At the time, I didn't know what he was talking about, as all the people in my generation were playing big horns and big mouthpieces. What's the old proverb?...."We grow too soon old and too late smart."
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Inter Reply with quote

Interesting. I don't know about all Jazz players playing tight horns and tight mouthpieces..but I do know that many used to prefer smaller diameter mp's..Calicchio used to have 3 stock diameters he liked to use..the smallest was for "Jazz" the middle was for "Studio" and the largest for "Classical". They were basically 10...5-7 and 3...Lots of guys came out of Philly..it's something when u realize it..
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Brad,

I grew up in the same little town of Dania Florida with Ira. Dania is this tiny little town right in the middle of to huge towns (Hollywood and Ft.Lauderdale)

I met Ira when I was 12. I'd been playing trumpet for only a year and he told me that if I wanted to play jazz I must play along with the radio (Muzak stations). He would tell me to find the key and just blow.

Ira always played a very very old Bob Reeves mp from way back. Bob just started stamping numbers around the shank so that no matter where you started you would have a different number. Ira used to joke about this. As far as I know he still plays it.

I went to school with both his kids (Brevard and Brogan) nice Irish names. Ira's Mother was Jewish and his Father Irish. We went to Dania Elementary School. Ira lived right across the street from an old graveyard, at night it was very creepy for a kid to be around there.

I remember him telling the dime story, but that seems unlikely that a dime would cut through anything. The edges of a dime are so rounded and then you have the knurling around the outside......I don't see it working.

Many years later when I got to be a pro Ira would hire me to play trumpet with his band. You ask anyone who ever played with him about this........he made you pay your dues. You never got off that bandstand feeling good about how you had played the last set.

At the begining of the set he would call tunes that you could really play your ass off on. Cherokee, Any Rhythm changes tune, Sweet Georgia Brown, Broadway etc. You'd be wailing on one tune after the next and then all of a sudden he'd call Giant Steps, or Stable Mates in B natural. If you tried to beg off and not blow on the tunes that you weren't comfortable on he would embarrass you and say things like "I thought you were a jazz musician" etc. Anything to get you to play. And after you got through playing on these tunes and stepping all over your dick he'd tell you how great you sounded to make you feel even worse. This is what those of us in South Florida refer to as "getting spanked by Ira". In a way its considered an honor.

Ira is one heavy motherfu**er. He was with Blakey and the Jazz Messengers, he played with Bird, Clifford.......everybody. Hes the real deal. One of the last left of that generation.
Chris LaBarbera
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fox
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I grew up in Boca Raton and spent a lot of time at FAU watching jazz festivals in the small theatre. Ira was always amazing. I loved taking it all in- brilliant! That was when Bill Prince was there who could get around on just about every instrument.

One summer Vinnie Tanno gave us a clinic; just a handful of high school trumpet players. Vinnie would blow and say "watch my back muscles". Then he would take a drag from his cigarette and say, "and don't smoke". He looked at my mouthpiece at the time and called it a cookie cutter. It was a Giardinelli 7m given to me by Stubby Pastor. He then gave me a Schilke 11- still have it.

There were a lot of great players in the area- turns out even more than I thought.

Thanks for the stories Chris.

Doug
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bg
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris,

I didn't realize you were connected with Ira. Too cool! Most people don't know what you know; who he REALLY is, but of course we benefitted from our time with him on his trips to Chicago in the same ways. That jam-session mentality is a VERY Chicago, VERY Ira way of teaching/learning. It's at the basis of my whole way of teaching...I think I address that a bit in the interview I linked.

The thing, for me, that was really special was the teaming of Red and Ira. Musically, they pushed each other to new levels, and that band they had in the 80's, with Gary Dial and Jay Anderson was amazing. What was funny was the stark differences between Red and Ira; in terms of personality, attitude, philosophy, business, etc... the two of them could not have been MORE different, and although they really loved and respected each other, they also drove each other completely crazy. (The original "Odd Couple")

Over the years, especially when I was on the road with either one, I would hear stories about things that happened when they were working together; The same stories, but told from the opposite viewpoint. If I heard the story from Red, it was a completely different story than Ira's! In Red's story, Ira's looseness and spontaneity was to blame for something going wrong; in Ira's version of the same story, Red's need for structure and presentation was the culprit. Of course, I would just sit there and listen, pretending I hadn't heard the other side of the story. There are enough of these for a book; hmmm....

Two must-have records that they did in the 1950's are "Red Rodney" (Later reissued as "Red Arrow") and "Modern Music from Chicago". Don't know if you've heard the recording that Ira and I released, "Toy Trumpet" on SteepleChase.

bg
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy Sh!t Doug.........

Stubby was a very good friend of mine also. He was the brother of famous bandleader Tony Pastor.
I know that you are telling the truth because Vinnies main mp was a Schilke 11. He had a boatload of other mps he used to play high but his main mp was a strait 11. Its funny how different things were in the 1970's. A Schilke 11 was considered a good all around commercial mp. Today its a swimming pool. If a guy had a good high A back then he was looked at with wonder and respect, today EVERYBODY (even many high school kids) can play a high A.......

Stubby was a nice man , so long as he never caught you playing on a JetTone. Oh how he HATED them......If one of his students dare show up playing one spit would fly out of Stubby mouth like a Reverend speaking of the Devil.

About Leo The Whistler........ all Vinnie ever said was that he used to practice on a 10-1/2C and that his high note piece was a Charlie Allen that was so small nobody could play it. He told me that Hamps band ran up against Ellington's one night on the road and that after Cat finished with an incredibly high note, Leo popped the octave above Cat. I kept saying no way, but Vinnie said he was there, he saw/heard it. I was very close to Vinnie. I spoke to him on the phone the day before he passed away. He was the greatest trumpet player nobody's ever heard of. He could play anything...........lead, high notes, the best jazz etc. He was a little crazy in his own way, but a very nice guy who loved his horn.

He made one good recording that you can still buy. Its call "Gold Coast Jazz with the Lon Norman Sextet". Vinnie is in his early 20's on this and he sounds brilliant, but nothing like he did when he was having a good night back in the 1970's. He would simply blow your mind............... BTW Vinnie was from Philly and was also a devoted Reinhardt student.

Doug-
You still live around here?
Send me a PM.
Chris
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Brad,

Yes Ira gave me most of those records. The one I'd like to get my hands on is "SuperBop". Red and Sam Noto. it was on Muse and as everybody allways says I used to have it but lent it out and it never came back.

I played many gigs with Ira. Boy are you on the money about lack of structure. I don't think Ira ever even heard the word.........

Heres a quick one..... Ira but together a big band to play at the Treasure Coast Jazz Festival. He had special Ellington charts lifted and the name of the concert was billed "Ira Does Duke Ellington".

We rehearsed those charts for two strait days......."Upper Manhattan Medical" "Caravan" "Perdido" and many other Ellington classics.

Well we finally get on the bandstand and we didn't play one single chart!!! It was a free for all with a big band.... can you imagine? A break would come and six different guys would all play at the same time. Another thing.....If we played more than three Ellington tunes then that was a lot. Ira would simply call whatever he felt like playing and to hell with the set list. He even said on the mic several times "This next tune is not by Duke Ellington, but the guy who wrote it really admired Duke" lol

Well we started loosing the audience, people who came to hear "Satin Doll" just simply started walking out. So Harry Buck, the promoter goes over to Ira and says "Ira, people are leaving in droves, please just play one Ellington song, something they'll all know". Ira says no problem and guys from the band start yelling out Ellington tunes that we could play. Ira ignores everybody and plays...........you guessed it............AMAZING GRACE.

That was the end of that.

Its all true, I was there and someplace I have a tape of that gig. It sounds terrible. It was the cream of the crop of South Fl. players but absolutely no structure at all. just 16 guys blowing whenever they feel like it.

Take care Brad.

Chris
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PhxHorn
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has been an entertaining thread to read. Ira was out here in AZ in the mid 90s as a guest artist, and for some reason I didn't go to the show. I must have had some stupid bar gig or something. I've been kicking myself ever since.

Chris, I have the Superbop LP. I just dug it out of the closet and it's in good shape, haven't listened to it in years. You've given me a lot of valuable info over the years. PM me your address and it's yours. Hopefully I can find the right packing materials for an LP. Lacking that, I'll transfer it to CD for you.
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kurt,

I'd much rather have it on CD. At the moment I don't own a turntable.

Thanks,
Chris
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PhxHorn
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll get on it. By the way, it looks like Tom Harrel will be in your area soon.


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