lip trills?

[flumpet]

hey guys. need some help. You know in jazz trumpet... theres this method of playing two notes.. usually high notes. As in it alternates. I heard its the lip trill.... So if it is, i wanna know the interval of the notes.
For example..... lets say i play this nice jazzy piece...... then the last note is a high C(c above staff, 2nd ledger line) which upper note to i hit to make that E ah E ah E ah Eah effect?
major 5th?

ps: i hope you guys know what i'm talking about



[ This Message was edited by: flumpet on 2003-01-03 10:39 ]

[musiclifeline]

The interval of a lip trill is usually a major 2nd (i.e., from C to D and back). There are wider lip trills (sometimes called the Basie trill, though this refers as much to the technique used to perform it as it does to the interval itself), such as a minor 3rd, but the most common these days seems to be the major 2nd.

[trombapaul2]

Typically, the partials of the horn determine the upper note. On the high C, the next open note is the D. If you were lip trilling a G on the staff, the next open note would be the Bb.
You could change that by fingering the G 1-3. The upper note would then be a slightly
sharp A, but since you're trilling, who cares!

When you're in the high register of the horn, you're dealing almost exclusively with major 2nds. However, as you go lower, the partials are wider. Down on the staff, you'll find yourself dealing mostly with 3rds and 4ths. A lip trill on a low C would be a 5th. You'll
never be asked to do that but if you can lip trill low, you can nail any trill above the staff.

Remember to use lots of air and to keep the airflow even. Also, think towards the upper note. Generally, people who have trouble lip trilling are spending too much time thinking about the starting (lower) note. Think about the target note so you're "leaning" in the right direction from the start. Let your tongue do all the work.

[musicmonkey]

What's the difference between a lip trill, a regular trill, and a shake?

My understanding is that a regular trill alternates between two notes, the written note and the note one step above that.

A shake alternates between one note and the next partial up; meaning you do not change your fingering. I assume a lip trill is the same as a shake and I think that is the effect you want as it is very common in jazz.

I'm kind of confused though, so I may be wrong

mm

[flumpet]

Hmmm i think i got it wrong... i dun think i was thinking of the trill.
I was thinking of the lip slur i think.
Where you start at a note then lip slur up down up down repeatedly to create that jazz effect.
something like Ah e Ah e Ah e Ah e Ahhhhhhh
normally its used at the end of jazz pieces...
what's this ornament called?
shake?
if then what's the usual method of executing it?
thanks a million

[trombapaul2]

Hey guys,

What was asked about is the lip trill. The shake is a different animal. With the lip trill, you use the tongue to change the pitch (tah-ee-ah-ee-ah-etc). With a shake, you actually shake the horn towards and away from the face just enough to change the pressure on the embouchure thus changing the pitch. The shake is a more abrupt or violent sounding
effect where the lip trill is a very smooth, controlled technique. For both the lip trill and the shake, the note change happens between the partials. For conversation sake, the valve trill is done by starting on one note and changing notes by a whole step using the valve(s),
or, a whole step or half step as indicated on the part by placing an accidental above the note being trilled.

Paul
_________________
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[musicmonkey]

I think that a lip trill and a shake are the same thing. However, there are two ways of doing it: as you said you can change the pitch with the tongue or by shaking the horn. In a perfect world, these two techniques are supposed to sound the same, but as you mentioned, shaking the horn generally produces a more violent sound.

Both of the methods should accomplish the same thing, which is (rapidly) switching between partials. I believe a shake or lip trill is usually indicated by a jagged line above the note. (like a saw blade or something.)

I have always heard the two methods of executing this technique (moving horn or raising tongue) refered to as the same thing. They are just means towards an end. Then again, I could be wrong, maybe they are two different animals...

In any case, they produce basically the same effect, that is trilling between two partials.

mm

[drunkiq]

my 2 cents -

a lip trill involves valves moving

a shake can be done by either physically shaking the horn between two pitches or by doing the intervals with your lips (i-e-i-e-ie) like a rapid lips slur.

at least that is how I was taught the difference was.
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[musicmonkey]

Marc, I think what you are calling a "lip trill" is really just a "trill." Although I had never heard of lip trills before I came to this board, my impression is that the 'lip' in lip trill implies a trill done with just the lips, i.e. no fingers.

It would be great if somebody absolutely sure on the definitions of these techniques could clarify...

mm

[drunkiq]

good point - I called up my brother -

he says this -

"you remember it wrong" - Ok maybe I did...

a shake is done by shaking the horn on your lips to go between two notes and is common among those that do not have the ability to do a lip trill -

a trill is a trill, you use the valves

however a lip trill is a shake done without shaking the horn - you use your lips/tounge. it is a hybrid between the two it is smooth like a trill but is used instead of shaking the horn you use your lips to do it so that is why it is called a lip trill. I guess he means the name itself show it is a hybrid.

listen to maynard for a good lip trill, it is all in the lips and that is how it should be done...

makes sence to me now...

-marc

[trombapaul2]

I am absolutely sure of the definitions!! Thanks Marc (and your brother)
for the clarification.

Paul

[ This Message was edited by: trombapaul2 on 2003-01-05 13:01 ]

[musicmonkey]

okay, I guess I was confused. But...are they both indicated by the "saw" line?

mm

[drunkiq]

yes, the lip trill or the shake is a saw - but it sounds better and you can control it better with your lips rather than shaking your horn around - it is personal prefrance in how you actually do it...

-marc

[PC]

Hi, along the lines of the preceding posts:

Technically, lip trills and shakes are the same beast, a rapid alteration between 2 notes without the use of the valves. As I understand it, though, the lip trill is always a trill in the sense that it is restricted to minor and major second intervals, while the shake can get wilder (frequently up to a fifth, where you are supposed to glide between the 2 notes). Also, I would slow down slightly the shake compared to a classical trill to get a better effect and always use normal fingering for the lower note so as not to restrict the interval to a second (for example shake between F and Ab on top of the staff instead of F and G using 1-3 fingering).

As to wether to use physical shaking of the instrument or the lips (set in motion by wiggling the tongue, I believe), I favour the control of the mouth rather than playing with the hand, so as not to interfere with the embouchure.

Cheers,
Pierre.