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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3257
Location: Alabama
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 Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:38 am Post subject: |
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The sound is not as good because the experimental setup is obviously acoustically inferior to an unmodified instrument.
The membrane can transmit the high frequency standing wave but not as effectively as the free pipe.
The membrane blocks the "average" flow, but the average flow (frequency of zero, or DC component so to speak) is allowed to escape through a resistive path "upstream" of the membrane but downstream of the aperture pressure pulses.
Speculating, I think that opening up the mouthpiece throat with this system might improve the "playability" since the DC resistance of the normal throat is no longer required and is provided by the flow resistance of the shunt path. |
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theslawdawg
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Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 843
Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | The sound is not as good because the experimental setup is obviously acoustically inferior to an unmodified instrument.
The membrane can transmit the high frequency standing wave but not as effectively as the free pipe.
The membrane blocks the "average" flow, but the average flow (frequency of zero, or DC component so to speak) is allowed to escape through a resistive path "upstream" of the membrane but downstream of the aperture pressure pulses.
Speculating, I think that opening up the mouthpiece throat with this system might improve the "playability" since the DC resistance of the normal throat is no longer required and is provided by the flow resistance of the shunt path. |
Huh???
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:03 pm Post subject: Darryl |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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FRANCIS MAZIERS
Regular Member
Joined: 04 Dec 2020
Posts: 25
Location: France
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Lips stiffness? |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | FRANCIS MAZIERS wrote: |
But here it seems that the lips stiffness, in other, is not in the equation! So i am wandering if the the sound can be the same that with a real embouchure?
Maybe it depends on the nature of the membrane ?
What do you think about that? ... |
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The sound will not be exactly the same if there is no membrane and the air blown into the mouthpiece goes directly into the horn. A difference in sound would happen because it is extremely unlikely that the membrane would transmit all the frequencies and amplitude of air pressure oscillation in a way that is exactly the same as without the membrane. It is the exact form of the 'air pressure oscillations' that produces the 'sound quality'.
But with a light weight and flexible membrane, I would guess that a 'similar sound' would happen.
In any type of 'electro / mechanical' transmission (and that is what the membrane is doing) there will always be some difference between the 'input signal' and the 'output signal'. |
I agree with this assertion but how the diaphragm can’t alone vary its stiffness to resonate with sympathy with the various frequencies imposed by the embouchure and the pressure?
Thanks for your very interesting posts
Best regards Jay! |
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FRANCIS MAZIERS
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Joined: 04 Dec 2020
Posts: 25
Location: France
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | The sound is not as good because the experimental setup is obviously acoustically inferior to an unmodified instrument.
The membrane can transmit the high frequency standing wave but not as effectively as the free pipe.
The membrane blocks the "average" flow, but the average flow (frequency of zero, or DC component so to speak) is allowed to escape through a resistive path "upstream" of the membrane but downstream of the aperture pressure pulses.
Speculating, I think that opening up the mouthpiece throat with this system might improve the "playability" since the DC resistance of the normal throat is no longer required and is provided by the flow resistance of the shunt path. |
But I don’t understand how a diaphragm can solely resonate with sympathy in terms of various embouchure’s characteristics and it’s correlative pressure ! |
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:38 pm Post subject: Resident acoustician |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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FRANCIS MAZIERS
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Joined: 04 Dec 2020
Posts: 25
Location: France
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| FRANCIS MAZIERS wrote: | | kalijah wrote: | The sound is not as good because the experimental setup is obviously acoustically inferior to an unmodified instrument.
The membrane can transmit the high frequency standing wave but not as effectively as the free pipe.
The membrane blocks the "average" flow, but the average flow (frequency of zero, or DC component so to speak) is allowed to escape through a resistive path "upstream" of the membrane but downstream of the aperture pressure pulses.
Speculating, I think that opening up the mouthpiece throat with this system might improve the "playability" since the DC resistance of the normal throat is no longer required and is provided by the flow resistance of the shunt path. |
But I don’t understand how a diaphragm can solely resonate with sympathy in terms of various embouchure’s characteristics and it’s correlative pressure ! |
In other words, how this diaphragm, that can’t vary is characteristics (stiffness....), could resonate with the instrument ? |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3298
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Lips stiffness? |
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| FRANCIS MAZIERS wrote: |
I agree with this assertion but how the diaphragm can’t alone vary its stiffness to resonate with sympathy with the various frequencies imposed by the embouchure and the pressure? ... |
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I think that it can 'vary alone' - but it can not do it perfectly.
The air pressure oscillations within the mouthpiece cup volume are very complex, and a simple 'low technology' diaphram/membrane cannot provide a perfect transmission interface. And that was not the goal of the demonstration that 'air flow' into the horn is not required to produce sound.
A 'perfect membrane' would only 'react' to the pressure on both sides - pressure being produce by the lips, and pressure resonating back from within the tubing of the horn. Since the membrane does have limitations on is flexibility and 'reaction time', it cannot do a perfect transmission of the pressure.
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3257
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In other words, how this diaphragm, that can’t vary is characteristics (stiffness....), could resonate with the instrument ? |
The membrane need be flexible and as low mass per area as possible. It doesn't resonate, but "transmits" the standing pressure wave wave by particle displacement.
Who knows if the membrane in the cited experiment attenuated the sound or any of its harmonic content?
See an animated rendering of standing wave particle displacement here:
https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/waves-intro/waves-intro.html |
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:52 pm Post subject: What is a Wave? |
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Deleted b y dfcoleman
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:12 pm Post subject: Membrane definition |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kalijah
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3257
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Dictionary definition of membrane: A thin pliable sheet of material forming a barrier or lining. |
thin = low mass per area
pliable = flexible |
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:43 pm Post subject: Yes |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Yes |
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| dfcoleman wrote: | Congratulations! You’ve pointed out that your previous reply successfully reworded the online dictionary!
Deep insight from the “acoustician” |
You're making a fool of yourself. Just saying.
Trumpetherald is for the sharing of ideas and concepts and for the discussion of those ideas and concepts within the context of civility.
No one says that you have to agree with anything said here but snarky comments don't gain you credibility or respect.
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trumpetteacher1
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3404
Location: Garland, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Yes |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | dfcoleman wrote: | Congratulations! You’ve pointed out that your previous reply successfully reworded the online dictionary!
Deep insight from the “acoustician” |
You're making a fool of yourself. Just saying.
Trumpetherald is for the sharing of ideas and concepts and for the discussion of those ideas and concepts within the context of civility.
No one says that you have to agree with anything said here but snarky comments don't gain you credibility or respect. |
+100 |
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: Ok |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
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deleted_user_48e5f31
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:07 pm Post subject: Personal attack |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8911
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Ok |
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| dfcoleman wrote: | | I’ve received a half dozen emails from professional musicians supporting my posts. |
Here are all your recent contributions to this thread.
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“I dont understand what you are asking.” Darryl Jones
That’s really refreshing! Nicely put, Darryl.
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Try applying this equation to this thread : Maybe right, maybe wrong, definitely irrelevant.
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Waiting to hear our resident “acoustician” clear this up for all of our benefit!
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A link to “ What is a Wave?”
Yeah, that’s some deep insight into acoustics. Sure to impress just about any junior high student .
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“The membrane needs to be flexible and as low mass per area as possible”
Dictionary definition of membrane: A thin pliable sheet of material forming a barrier or lining.
Again, more terrific ...
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Congratulations! You’ve pointed out that your previous reply successfully reworded the online dictionary!
Deep insight from the “acoustician”
--
What exactly is it that you've actually said that a half dozen professional musicians have supported? I'm not suggesting that you can't challenge Daryl's arguments, but badgering him doesn't really constitute a counterargument does it?
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Steve A
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Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 1808
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Personal attack |
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| dfcoleman wrote: | Hermokiwi : “You're making a fool of yourself. Just saying.”
This is, BTW, a personal attack. Strictly prohibited by trumpetherald regs
Fortunately, I’m not a crybaby. |
If you don't think it's fair to suggest that you've acted poorly in this thread, perhaps you could point us in the direction of what you've actually contributed to this discussion?
If you don't think that understanding the physics of playing is necessarily to play well, fine - you're entitled to your opinion, but maybe you could let others discuss it without making a deliberate and sustained effort to pick a fight? |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Ok |
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| dfcoleman wrote: | I’ve received a half dozen emails from professional musicians supporting my posts. 5 out of 6 indicated that they don’t contribute to trumpetherald because of the nonsensical posts from various individuals, usually amateur trumpet players.
I’ve been snarked by some of the best. I got over it, and oftentimes learned something.
Nothing personal intended here. |
Indeed some of the most respected in the field discourage participation in TH as well as avoiding it themselves. When it comes to nonsense, this thread is the poster-child.
Fighting about bruised egos over who's nonsense has faced less counter-nonsense? Just pointless.
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