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How much air is supposed to travel through the trumpet?


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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

c.j. wrote

Quote:
What people also forget, is that the airflow needed up high is proportionally less than the air flow playing low.


Not necessarily.

It depends on sound volume.

And the air flow requirements are really more constant than you might think across the range with constant sound levels.

The ascending notes DO require progressively more pressure.

So if you are talking about constant pressure as you ascend you can expect decreasing flows, but at decreasing sound volume as well.
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healey.cj
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is air flow required even for a vacuum horn, it just happens that the net flow in a vaccum horn is in the opposite direction.

The vacuum horn is probably very similar to the trumpet... The air flow establishes the 'pulse' and energy of it, but the air does NOT travel with sound, indeed once it has left the aperture i would imagine it would loose almost all velocity.

Quote:
Not necessarily.

It depends on sound volume.

And the air flow requirements are really more constant than you might think across the range with constant sound levels.

The ascending notes DO require progressively more pressure.


To help me fully comprehend and develop a mental image lets imagine two different models:
1. The air flow is constant at all times, however the aperture gets increasingly smaller.

2. The air flow progressivly increases and the aperture remains at a constant size.

Explain what happens in terms of Dynamics, Range, Air Pressure at the aperture and Air Flow into the mouthpiece cup. Also add any other information that may be important.

Thanks
Chris
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The air flow establishes the 'pulse' and energy of it, but the air does NOT travel with sound,


The air does not "travel" with the sound even in a conventional setup. In a resonant horn the sound actually travels in both directions. And the speed of the sound wave makes the flow of air apear comparatively slow or even static, regardless of flow direction.
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healey.cj
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The air does not "travel" with the sound even in a conventional setup. In a resonant horn the sound actually travels in both directions. And the speed of the sound wave makes the flow of air apear comparatively slow or even static, regardless of flow direction.

pretty much.
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BobList
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea. What he said....
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NickD
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:20 pm    Post subject: ummm.... Reply with quote

Actually the speed of SOUND has nothing to do with the speed of the air flow. The air flow through the horn is a DC component. The SOUND is a wave phenomenon. The sound wave rides right through the DC part.

The air flow through the horn doesn't appear to be slow. It IS slow. Also, the actual volume of air in liters per seocnd is quite low. I'll have to look it up, but it's in an OLD ITG article somewhere.

If we assume the air tempurature in the horn is about 25 degrees C, the speed of sound would be about 346 meters per second. Also there are two components to the wave - one outging started by the lips and the other reflected (from somewhere near the bell - getting farther out as you play higher). The interference pattern casued by the two waves is the standing wave (sometimes called stationarywaves) that is the resonant note we hear. The actual speed of the air flow once it enters the throat of the mouthpiece is a few centimeters per second and even less by the time it gets to the bell.

Now, I don't mean to imply that the note we are playing doesn't affect how hard we have to blow the horn. It's just that it's a bit complicated. It's related to acoustic impedence (sound pressure/volume velocity), and for a trumpet it's measured in megohms. For the loudness that we generate, we use a relatively small flow.

Chris you asked ...

Quote:
Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:20 am Post subject:
To help me fully comprehend and develop a mental image lets imagine two different models:
1. The air flow is constant at all times, however the aperture gets increasingly smaller.

2. The air flow progressivly increases and the aperture remains at a constant size.

Explain what happens in terms of Dynamics, Range, Air Pressure at the aperture and Air Flow into the mouthpiece cup. Also add any other information that may be important.


Now, I am shooting from the cuff, here, but it seems to me from my experience playing that if we try to use a constant flow for an aperture which is getting increasingly smaller, we'll need to compress the air more into our mouth as the smaller aperture will resist flow more. On the the other hand if the aperture reamins a constant size, most folks will need to move a lot more air as they ascend in pitch.

As to the last part, I've looked at things this way: the lower I play the larger the aperture; the higher I play the smaller the aperture; the louder I play the larger the aperture; the softer I play the smaller the aperture. so, to play a very lound low note I'd have a farily larger aperture going. Conversely, to play a very soft high note (piccolo stuff) I'd have a farily small aperture setup. Now, when I was working with this model (during my road years including with MF) I was never really thinking about air, all that much, and I think it was certainly to my detriment. I had my share of problems with my chops, but I could mange things, well, ok.

From my point of view now, I see the need to compress air, but I don't see the need to move huge quantities of it. I run out of air much more quickly play loud low notes than I do high G's or double C's. I do feel the need to compress the air more over an arched tongue more with a bit of a Shew-like wedge going for the high stuff, but not a dying strain. I'm not shaking as I try to hold out a long high note, unless the band leader holds one out for too dang long. I guess, I realize that I don't need to move huge quantities of air, but I need to keep the flow up as the aperture gets smaller (thus reisisting a bit) and I'm going to need runs the pumps up a bit to do that.

The challenge for folks working on this is pinching. That was a problem for me in the 80's. In an effort to play on a smaller aperture for the high stuff, I would often slip into setting an aperture which was TOO close toghether, slamming the mouthpiece on nice an tight, locking everything down and then blowing till I thought my head would pop. Jerry would have had a cow had he seen me playing like that, but when I was younger I could force stuff out like that, though my chops would get beat up now and then. I had to change things. The aperture control thing I mentioned above helped me. Next I learned how to buzz my lips without a mouthpiece to develop a more efficient set using minimum mouthpiece pressure. In the process, I stumbled onto the idea that I had unconsciously started setting my tongue in almost perfect TCE position for much of my playing. A bit later I came across the Trumpet Secrets book to discover that Jerry was teaching this method. Since Last June (at the ITG after talking to Jerry a bit more), I've adopted his approach completely. I find I can balance the use of air against the size of the aperture most easily using his method.

It is really starting to work for me.

Ok, I'm rambling and getting a bit punchy. I need to crash. I've got a long weekend coming up. In additon to playing, I'm volunteering as a judge at the Illinois State Science Fair. Seeing those kids's projects really amazes me!

Peace, folks.

Nick
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I do feel the need to compress the air more over an arched tongue more with a bit of a Shew-like wedge going for the high stuff, but not a dying strain.


Nick, an "arched" tongue position does not "compress" the air above what the lungs provide. Arching the tongue is quite retated to embouchure formation and the reaction of the "mouth floor".

Quote:
From my point of view now, I see the need to compress air, but I don't see the need to move huge quantities of it.


How much air flow that is required depends in a prominent way upon the acoustics of the horn. There is a minimum amount required for the volume of sound you play.

Indeed "huge quantities" are not required.

I have found that with increasing efficiency, both flow and pressure are reduced to a point closer to the minimum. But they are not interchangeable nor can you reduce them to less than what the acoustics of the horn require.
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NickD
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:30 am    Post subject: more stuff Reply with quote

I compress the air with the Shew-like wedge. I never said I compressed it with the tongue. My sentence structure might have bgeen a little weird. No surprise there.

I would also aruge that along with the acoustics of the horn the demands of the note (and setup of chops and tongue) will change the parameters/requirments of flow and pressure.

When you say "pressure" I assume air pressure, correct (as opposed to mouthpiece pressure against the lips)?

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healey.cj
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When you say "pressure" I assume air pressure, correct (as opposed to mouthpiece pressure against the lips)?

Yeah, that is what Kalijah is reffering... not the pull and play method LOL
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Doc comes to town his trumpet is miked, amplified and coupled to the air of the arena via multiple arrays of what appear to be treble horns. So air flow from the trumpet is a moot point.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

healey.cj wrote:
Quote:
The main benefit of this (Callet's methods) is air FLOW requires lip strength, and I never developed sufficient lip strength to handle it. Not even when I was practicing 8 - 12 hours / day in College, and had facial muscles that visibly looked brutish.


The problem is that playing is a balance and co-ordination between many moving parts. Strength is required with the conventional method! but only to stop the lips from blowing apart, not to squeeze them together.
Air Flow is not the whole picture as you may have thought back then.
First of all, the lips need to learn to vibrate properly in their optimum position, this takes around a month to 'learn' or get the hang of and is the basis of MANY methods. (Clarke, Cat Anderson, CC etc)


You might say I came upon a pretty optimum lip shape and position within 2 weeks of picking up a horn, in 1974. I started with Gordon's systematic approach and the first time I tried to play high notes was 2 weeks later, under my teacher's supervision. He took me up to a high D, which came out controlled with effortless power. I dug it and knew it blew away anything he'd ever been able to do with respect to that one aspect of playing the horn.

He had me stop ascending, and re-directed my efforts to other aspects of playing well. This was wise, as he personally knew of nothing that could improve my range, but of course I didn't know that at the time. He also visibly turned green with envy, and it stressed our relationship quite a bit.

IF there had been someone who actually understood what I was doing - which there WASN'T - just a little bit of direct instruction about where to exert force and in which direction(s), I could've done the same exercise again and no doubt missed my note, hitting a high E instead. It probably would've been sloppy and uncontrolled, but louder and even more effortless. My eyes would've lit up and I would've done whatever that teacher said and really applied myself to it.

And I would've been playing with the same physical set-up I use now. Or, I would've gotten this far 30 some years ago ...
healey.cj wrote:

What people also forget, is that the airflow needed up high is proportionally less than the air flow playing low. A larger aperture needs greater airflow to achieve energy in the pulses of air.
A smaller aperture needs a lot less airflow to achieve the same level or pressure at the aperture (which is smaller) and to recieve a similar strength pulse.

Higher doesn't mean more.


I didn't hear this until 1981 - and I didn't really "learn" it even then!
healey.cj wrote:

8 hours a day would be damaging you lips and no amount of muscle could help you. especially not when the lips aren't in the right/best position to start with.

No Offense, It just really worries me though that Colleges don't have teachers who know how playing the horn works, or how to get real, lasting results - reguarly!

I really hope TCE works out for you After 8 hours a day practice, you deserve it to!
Chris


Nah, 8 - 12 hours / day didn't damage my lips. Neither did it damage the lips of a few of this College Prof's other students: Jerry Hey, Bobby Bland, Bob Slack, Chris Botti, etc, etc

Pretty lasting results there!

If I ever put in 8 hours a day with Callet's instruction, my playing would soar WAY past anything I'd ever accomplish under that teacher. In fact it already has, with a measly and inconsistent 2 - 8 hrs / WEEK.

The problem was finding a teacher who understood what I naturally do with a horn on my face. Callet's embouchure is that, but more refined than anythign I stumbled upon on my own.

I'm still hoping to better understand WHY what I do works, and thereby consistently progress moreso than just stumbling around blind.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
In this thread I perceive Darryl as saying that ENERGY is significant, and that air flow and air pressure are largely inter-changable as long as we don't think we can approach 0 airflow.


No, i never said or implied that.

Flow and pressure are most certainly NOT interchangeable.

Flow is very much influenced by the acoustics of the horn.

And there is a flow requirement INTO the horn to play. And it is NOT simply to make the lips vibrate.


Forgive me Darryl - I'm not a technical writer. You wrote a formula on this thread whereby the TOTAL energy is the product of one form of energy multiplied by the other. (Potential energy times ? = total energy)

I took this to mean the 2 different forms of energy are air PRESSURE and air FLOW. Apparently I'm wrong - I can deal with that. In practical terms we can actually USE with a horn stuck on our face, what ARE these 2 different energy forms? And is it not true that in terms of ease of basic sound production we're all really looking to put more ENERGY into the mpc cup??

Also to be practical, the basic, minimum-airflow-necessary-for-the- acoustic-properties-of-the-instrument-itself type stuff can probably be implied and understood at this point in the thread, since it proves itself by the fact we get a SOUND, and any condition that does NOT produce a sound has been excluded for many years now, and will no doubt continue to be immediately for all of us here. I do respect the need for the clarification though!

Ray
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FRANCIS MAZIERS
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:45 am    Post subject: Lips stiffness? Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
Jerome showed me a study done on the air required to play a trombone. In this test, a diaphram was installed inside the mouthpiece to prevent any air at all from entering the instrument. A port was drilled into the side of the mouthpiece to allow the air being blown to escape. According to this study, the trombone sound was normal, even though no air was going through the instrument.


Yes but the "air required" was going into the mouthpiece. You can not draw the conclusion that there was no air "required" simply because the flow was diverted out of the mouthpiece.

The experiment allows the impedance and resonance of the instrument to exist. ANd flow IS required for a tone.


But here it seems that the lips stiffness, in other, is not in the equation! So i am wandering if the the sound can be the same that with a real embouchure?
Maybe it depends on the nature of the membrane ?
What do you think about that?
Thanks for all your posts Darry because at last I understand know how a brass instrument really works !
Best regards.
Francis.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont understand what you are asking.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:34 am    Post subject: I dont understand what you are asking. Reply with quote

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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francis, can you reword your question? I am just not sure what your intention was.

This is an older thread and raze asked a question that I didn't respond to. Sorry, I wasn't aware because it was interesting.
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FRANCIS MAZIERS
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:31 am    Post subject: Lips stiffness? Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
Jerome showed me a study done on the air required to play a trombone. In this test, a diaphram was installed inside the mouthpiece to prevent any air at all from entering the instrument. A port was drilled into the side of the mouthpiece to allow the air being blown to escape. According to this study, the trombone sound was normal, even though no air was going through the instrument.


Yes but the "air required" was going into the mouthpiece. You can not draw the conclusion that there was no air "required" simply because the flow was diverted out of the mouthpiece.

The experiment allows the impedance and resonance of the instrument to exist. ANd flow IS required for a tone.


But here it seems that the lips stiffness, in other, is not in the equation! So i am wandering if the the sound can be the same that with a real embouchure?
Maybe it depends on the nature of the membrane ?
What do you think about that?
Thanks for all your posts Darry because at last I understand know how a brass instrument really works !
Best regards.
Francis.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't asking for you to repeat. I see your post.

Lip stiffness?

These experiments are done with players, playing as normally as possible. A real embouchure.

The air is "diverted" out of the mouthpiece cup. But the diverted path must have reasonable flow resistance.
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FRANCIS MAZIERS
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Francis, can you reword your question? I am just not sure what your intention was.

This is an older thread and raze asked a question that I didn't respond to. Sorry, I wasn't aware because it was interesting.


Sorry for my English. My question was about the experience with a trombone and a diaphragm in a mouthpiece that has been evoked by goldenhornplayer in the subject of “how much air is supposed to travel through the trumpet”.
I was just wandering about the quality of the sound that makes this diaphragm in comparison of a human embouchure. Because each paquets of air that is generating by the embouchure is going to hit this diaphragm. But How this diaphragm is going to respond in resonance with the horn?
I hope to express myself more clearly.
Best regards Darryl!
Francis.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Lips stiffness? Reply with quote

FRANCIS MAZIERS wrote:

But here it seems that the lips stiffness, in other, is not in the equation! So i am wandering if the the sound can be the same that with a real embouchure?
Maybe it depends on the nature of the membrane ?
What do you think about that? ...

------------------------
The sound will not be exactly the same if there is no membrane and the air blown into the mouthpiece goes directly into the horn. A difference in sound would happen because it is extremely unlikely that the membrane would transmit all the frequencies and amplitude of air pressure oscillation in a way that is exactly the same as without the membrane. It is the exact form of the 'air pressure oscillations' that produces the 'sound quality'.

But with a light weight and flexible membrane, I would guess that a 'similar sound' would happen.

In any type of 'electro / mechanical' transmission (and that is what the membrane is doing) there will always be some difference between the 'input signal' and the 'output signal'.
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