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New Mouthpiece: The Wedge


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oldlou
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 8:01 am    Post subject: Conn Clarke mouthpiece Reply with quote

In addition to the above, check the Conn Loyalist website in the mouthpiece segment. Click on The Common Sense Mouthpiece link to see my ancient mouthpiece.


OLDLOU>>
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DrDave
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is difficult to know not having seen your piece, but if I understand you correctly, what you decribe is consistent with the various patents that turned up in the search done for me. Previous oval, contoured mouthpieces were designed to be used that way. The intention was to have the mouthpiece conform to the shape of the lips and distribute pressure as evenly as possible.

It is possible then that the Wedge does differ from yours in terms of design and performance, since when oriented as you describe it is almost unplayable. The intention with the Wedge is to produce pressure inequalities between the different areas of the lips and mouthpiece, offloading pressure and reducing restrictions at the corners in order to imporve mobility there.

Hopefully you might get a chance to bring your piece to the ITG and play test it against mine. I would be very interested to see it. I was too late to get a table, but I will be there with some mouthpieces from about Wednesday at noon until Friday at noon. Perhaps we could meet. You could get me on my cell at 604 250-3670.

Cheers,
Dave
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Last edited by DrDave on Mon May 28, 2007 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DrDave
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I have just checked the Conn Loyalist site.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/ConnMPC-Early-commonsense.html

I have indeed seen this one described before. As I suspected, it was intended to "equalize pressure", which I think actually decreases performance by impairing lip range of motion (at least for me). Still, it certainly does share some characteristics in that it has a curved rim.

Dave
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UsedBits
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks less like a wedge and more like the carnival ride called the Hurricane (where the operators play irriting rap crap at more irritingly high volume levels).

But enough of that. How much are you charging for one?

What if a customer sends a piece to you for modification (instead of purchasing a new, modified piece from you)? How much would that cost?

Regards,
Steve
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oldlou
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 1:27 pm    Post subject: common sense mouthpiece Reply with quote

[quote="DrDave"]Hi,

I have just checked the Conn Loyalist site.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/ConnMPC-Early-commonsense.html

I have indeed seen this one described before. As I suspected, it was intended to "equalize pressure", which I think actually decreases performance by impairing lip range of motion (at least for me). Still, it certainly does share some characteristics in that it has a curved rim.

The picture shown on the Conn Loyalist site shows the high points of the mouthpiece impnging on the upper and lower lips. I play it with the high points resting in the valley caused by the lips being brought together, in other words, I twist the m/p 90 degrees from the position shown.


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DrDave
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steve,

I have not worked out pricing yet, because I will need to have computer controlled milling done, and those costs have not been fully determined. A ballpark estimate is about $200 for a top, including a Warburton backbore, with which it is designed to be used. The price of the top alone will be about $175 ( I think! ).

As for modifications, I am finding that with shallow pieces the additional metal taken off by the modification is significant. Shallow mods might need to be based on a deeper cup to start. Deeper models also play a bit brighter for some people, but not everyone. When production starts the Wedge model will be the same depth as a conventional piece which it is designed to replace, and will have the desired tone of the conventional piece with the playing advantages of the Wedge configuration – better range and flexibility than a similar sounding mouthpiece. The same result can be achieved in a modification of an existing rim by starting with a slightly deeper cup. For example in my experience a modified Bach 1 1/2B sounds much like an unmodified 1 1/2C, but is easier to play. I’ll have both at the ITG.

The other problem with doing a modification on an existing piece at this point is that I am doing them by hand, and it is impossible to make any two exactly the same, so if someone wants matching rims I am unable to provide them. The setup costs to do one off modifications with CNC milling would likely be prohibitive. So I could offer custom one off hand made mods, but people might just be better to choose a stock piece close to their current cup and rim size.

Having said all of that, if you want to send me a piece that you consider expendable, preferably one slightly deeper than what you would want your finished cup to be, I will make you a one off prototype for free and send it to you as a beta tester. The rim will be gold plated with a Caswell brush plating system on raw brass. I consider it a temporary plating job, more of a gold wash. If you like the piece and are going to play it I would recommend having it replated at your end. Whether the Wedge is found to work for other peolpe or is infamous as a flop that leaves me hiding out for the next year or so ,you will at least have one of the very first prototypes sent out. If you are going to the ITG you could try some pieces and choose the model of rim you want, because there are a number of slightly different prototype configurations.

On another topic, I was just speaking to another TH poster on the phone and I want to make a clarification on what might be confusion from some of my previous posts. The Wedge is played with the long axis of the cup oriented up and down, not sideways, the exact opposite of other oval shaped mouthpieces.

Cheers,
Dave
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Pops
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't read ANYTHING anymore and haven't in months but someone emailed me a link and asked me to comment.


Many teachers and players have tried variations of this and some have interesting results. Clarke felt that perhaps in the case of extreme dental malformations this would help. He didn't use them for any other reason.

This is not to say that at some point someone will invent a better mousetrap. Without people willing to experiment and take some risks we would still NOT have valves.

The major downside of this idea has always been duplicating the mouthpiece. Well I feel like we should have the ability to produce consistent copies in 2007.

That leaves the human factor.

A round mouthpiece can be put into the trumpet twisted at any angle and always sit on the lips the same way.

All versions of oval, asymetrical.. sit differently if not put in the receiver exactly the same way.

This will not affect some people but EVERYTHING affects some people and this is a possibility.

I am interested in seeing one. Not being a fan of shortcuts... it either passes mustard or not.
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DrDave
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pops,

Thanks for joining the discussion.

I could not agree with you more. Mouthpiece rotation is an issue. The Wedge does need to be oriented correctly, but in my experience is less critical than some other irregularly shaped rims and takes much less time to adjust to. For some, perhaps for many people, the Wedge will not be suitable for that reason, or for some other reason. For others it might be great. I do know at this point that for a few it is great.

As for precise duplicates, CNC milling with good quality control should be able to handle production of identical pieces milled from scratch. I am very ambivalent about offering one - off modifications because of concerns about not being able to economically produce exact reproductions. That might come later, but I just do not know. It is probably impractical.

Lastly, I am pleased with the interest this thread is generating, and am happy to continue the discussion. However, your last comment about the Wedge is the most important. All interesting debate aside, either it passes mustard or it doesn’t. I’ll be happy to provide you with a prototype based on your Curry 90 to evaluate.

Best Regards,
Dave
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some good words of mouthpiece wisdom from Pops.

DrDave - First, I just want to thank you. I really respect anyone who has the moxie to experiment with the trumpet like this! I think you would agree that we are all still trying to get some ‘set techniques’ down for trumpet playing, both in playing techniques and actual trumpet/mouthpiece design. Compared to other non-brass instruments, this seems to be more difficult, especially for the smaller-cupped mouthpiece brass instruments.....with the trumpet being at the top of the list!

It’s great to see brass pioneers like you and Pops who realize that no way works for everyone.....and have no problem freely admitting that! I think that it gives what you are doing greater credence to those who have more experience in experimenting with new techniques to improve their playing.

As far as duplicating your design, I think there are a few people out there who do this type of work pretty well....I consider Mark Curry to be exceptional at doing this kind of work, having great consistency towards the original piece you are having copied. I would go to him as your first choice if possible.

All the best, Lex
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Eggtracy
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrDave, this idea of sounds really interesting to me. I hope you do have success, and I really would love to have an oppurtunity to try one of your mouthpieces out. I can't go to ITG, which really is too bad. You wouldn't be interested in a 17 year-old being one of the testers of your mouthpieces, would you? If you're interested I could send you my old Holton 7C to be modified and I could give you my impressions on it. I'm sure you aren't interested but, if you are, let me know.
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cjl
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aside:

Not trying to be too much of a smart___, but the term is "pass muster".

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/pass+muster

It sounds like it would be awfully painful to pass mustard ...
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DrDave
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lex, thanks for your words of encouragement. Many people have been very supportive of me as I have been getting going. Jason Harrelson, and Terry Warburton have been especially helpful. You are not the first to suggest Mark Curry. Perhaps I will run into him at ITG.

Lucas, I actually think a 17 year old is the perfect person to do beta testing. PM me or email me and I will give you my address so you can send me your 7C.

Dave
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Eggtracy
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrDave wrote:

Lucas, I actually think a 17 year old is the perfect person to do beta testing. PM me or email me and I will give you my address so you can send me your 7C.

Dave


Cool, I really appreciate the chance to try your mouthpiece out. I sent you a PM. Hope to hear from you soon.
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Lucas Tracy

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DrDave
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should add that I do not consider myself much of a pioneer, and certainly not one who should be mentioned in the same sentence as someone like Pops. I am a semi-advanced amateur who has been playing for 35 years and who was desperate to find a way to get through West Side Story without being humiliated in public. I was sufficiently motivated to spend many hours in my garage ruining more mouthpieces than I care to think about. I somehow managed to discover something that practicing one or two hours a day and years of private instruction did not enable me to do. If it does the same thing for one out of ten other players I will be very happy. My brother <who is playing a Wedge 3C > on the other hand is hoping one needs to be blood relative for the Wedge to work because he sees himself getting a lot more work as a lead trumpet player in that case.
So, pioneer? Not really. Mostly lucky I think. I more or less stumbled onto this thing, and we still need to see how many people it will work for. I subscribe to the theory that if something seems too good to be true it probably is. And this seems too good to be true. The problem is that every time I pick up the horn this huge F comes out from what used to be a D, so I guess I have to believe.
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Last edited by DrDave on Mon May 28, 2007 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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UsedBits
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrDave,

I've sent a PM responding to your offer above.

Regards,
Steve
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DrDave
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 5:34 pm    Post subject: Table at the ITG Reply with quote

It turns out that a display table came available at the ITG, so I will be having an exhibit. I'll bring along a number of modified mouthpieces for you all to try. I'll be arriving on Wednesday afternoon and leaving on Friday around noon. I hope to meet many of you there.

Cheers,
Dave Harrison
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DrDave
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 7:30 am    Post subject: Pre-orders starting Reply with quote

I am leaving tonight for the ITG, where I will be accepting pre-orders from anyone who tries the mouthpiece and wants to be one of the first to get a production model. I am also offering pre-ordering to TH members who contact me and express interest. The first 100 TH pre-orders will get 20% off the production price. I will not be accepting any payments at this time, so you can cancel your order if the feedback from ITG is not good. Send your information to info@wedgemouthpiece.com. I just need your name, and what piece you currently play or would be replacing.
Cheers,
Dave
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Claude G.
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cjl wrote:
Aside:

Not trying to be too much of a smart___, but the term is "pass muster".

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/pass+muster

It sounds like it would be awfully painful to pass mustard ...



Yeah...or pass gas for that matter....hmmmm, I guess we'll have to see if this piece actually "cuts the mustard."
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6pk
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr Dave

This sounds like a fascinating projoect. I wanted to ask if you a few questions regrading the range improvement.

1) What do you think is the main reason this mpc improves range?
2) Does it say for example, help prevent air leakage at the sides?
3) How long does your new improced range last? Do you get tired at exactly the same of point as you did previously on conventionally mpc's but playing at a 3rd lower register.
4) How long does the honey moon last?

I have had experiences with trumpets that have given me an extra 3rd or even a fifth, I found this with the Wedgewood trumpets, with his famous valve block with no "bumps". BUT i have found this extra goes away after about 6 weeks, as I get lazy. The only way I can keep the benefit is to keep practicing on the old equipment, then user the other one in the gig, which I didn't enjoy as it became less familiar, this was a long time ago when I was a student.

My theory is, it works because its easier, AND because the player has been working harder on alternative equipment. What could happen is the players range comes back down a third to where ti roiginally was, then when they go back to a normal mpc their range has gone down another third. In order to make your equipment work for a sustained period, the player will need to be aware of the differences/benfits,and make he/she doesn't take the new range for granted. This can be applied to millions of different things, a 3c used to be my lead piece, then I used as my main piece for 6months, suddenly the 3c had a symphonic sound on it and no lead was coming out, so the 5sv became the leadpiece.
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blasticore
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: New Mouthpiece: The Wedge Reply with quote

DrDave wrote:
so that I can get some honest feedback from TH members very soon.


Just saying, but I'd definitely be happy to test drive one of these things if you like. I've long taken an interest in mouthpiece and horn design, in addition to having tried out hundreds of both within the last 5 years or so.
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