New Mouthpiece: The Wedge

[ljazztrm]

Good luck with your recovery Ken, and keep us posted on your results with the Wedge.

I just got back from my first serious pop/commercial recording session today with the Wedge pieces. It was a five hour session where I switched from trumpet to flugelhorn a lot. I used my 10.5BC/9* and my 10.5AC/12* cornet backbore in my Kanstul 1525 flugelhorn. Although the flugel sound was brighter than I like, it worked for this session. The session went great and the guys were very happy with my playing....which means future gigs with them. Both the trumpet and quasi-flugel piece worked great...great sound, range, and endurance! All the best, Lex.
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

[jazzscapes]

.....will this go the way of the "Asymmetric Mouthpiece"?
_________________
Tom Williams
1957 Olds Recording w/Nickel Silver bell Bb
1951 LA Olds Ambassador/Diplomat Bb
1960 Fullerton Special Bb w/triton bell
Bach 37LR w/Kanstul Heavyweight Copper Bell
Phaeton 2030 Bb Brushed Finish

[DrDave]

Hi Tom,

That is quite possible. As I have said from the beginning, the Wedge is not for everyone. Feedback from users this early into the game (6 months of beta testing and only 3 months into production models) indicates that only 61% rate it as better than there current mouthpiece, and 14% rate is as inferior. About 75% of purchasers choose to keep it.

I am not sure how these statistics would compare to other mouthpiece manufacturers, but as far as I know, no other manufacturer has been stupid enough to publish complete and unedited feedback on their products, so we may never know.

I think the Wedge will stand the test of time, but only the players will determine that, which is the other thing I have said from the beginning. Fortunately, I don't make my living doing this

So, will it fizzle out? I think the T shirt that my kids bought me says it best. "I could be wrong, but I doubt it."

Cheers!
_________________
Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

[DrDave]

In addition to going to the TMEA next week and the ITG in June I will be in Los Angeles from March 15th to March 18th. I will have a complete set of Wedge mouthpieces with me to show and let players try. I have not yet worked out any details of my visit yet but am open to suggestions.

Cheers.
_________________
Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

[ljazztrm]

I think the Wedge will be more popular than the Asymmetric. There are players who have experiences some pretty dramatic results with the Asymmetric (Nick Drozdoff comes to mind). But there are many players who didn't like them at all. I fall somewhere in the middle. Being a mouthpiece fanatic, I have owned all three models. The lead piece, I thought, was really good, because it had a great, bright, cutting lead sound. (Nick D. can also get a pretty wide variety of tonal palette out of it besides just lead). The Opera model was very nice, but I found it too dark for all-around playing. The 3C was cool...but just a too big of diameter for me. All-in-all, if John Lynch had offered more models, I would of continued to experiment with them...In my experiments with them, I just didn't find any radical increase in benefits for myself, so I went back to conventional pieces. I seem to remember brassreview.com having some reviews of the Asymmetric piece too. My hat is certainly off to John Lynch and, of course to Dr.Dave, for experimenting with radical, new designs in mouthpieces! All the best, Lex.
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

[Bill W]

I tried the Asymmetric Lead piece and, while the upper register was indeed bright and piercing, the middle and lower registers were very disappointing and the rim was only an afterthought. I think the Wedge has much more potential because it addresses the most important spot where the player and the equipment meet, "where the rubber meets the road" so to speak. So far, my personal experience bears this out.

Bill
_________________
Bill Wasserman
Shires B-LW
Shires Custom C
1962 Quesnon Flugel
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iMEHat1PXV0 Playing Maynard's "Hey There"

[DrDave]

We have been having a great time at the TMEA. About 150 players have turned up to try a Wedge. There has been lots of buzz about the Wedge here.

I am hoping that some of the people who tried one will post their impressions here.

Cheers.
_________________
Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

[apro1xoj]

Hi fellow members (Dr. Dave you can listen in)....I have tried, successfully, the Wedge in several different sizes and have finally come up with the 3C as being similar to the Bach 7C and Holton 7C I usually play. It has increased my range, my ease of playing above the staff, and my endurance. The #9 stem and the #7 stem in a Warburton fit well with the Wedge 3B, 3C, and 3D in different combinations for my needs. Dr. Dave was very helpful, and quite willing to ship the different sizes as I tried the 7, 5, and 3 sizes with the different cups. He has only charged me for the one stem (tried 2), and the 3 tops I finally settled on, and the shipping charges. I paid the same prices you will pay, too! I first thought this was some kind of gimmick, but it actually works - at least for me! Try it, I found Dr. Dave, whom I never knew before, to be a straightup guy interested in improving your performance.

[DubbaCTrumpetMSU]

Well, I'm back from TMEA...with a Wedge of my own. I gotta admit, it works, at least for me. Dr. Dave, you'll remember me, I was the one that came back 4-5 times, with my Stage 1 custom horn. I ended up with a 3E with a a 10* back, for lead, even though, believe it or not, it sounds great for classical stuff too. I will eventually buy a 3C rim for it, or maybe a 1.5C. I haven't decided yet. As it is, I'll say at least for me, it works. It's more efficient, and helps me not pull back on my lead stuff- I was pasting G's and double C's all over the wall-and occasionally a G above that. Yeah, it's not all range either, it gives tremendous projection and depth of sound. I will probably order the 3C simply because I want a bit of a darker sound with a fuller core for my solo classical stuff. I'm sold. Monette Prana MFIII is on ebay right now for $250 if anyone's interested...

Russ

[DrDave]

Hi Russ,

Of course I remember you. I think you spent more time at the booth than I did It was great to see someone having such a good time.

Thanks for posting your impressions. Later, I will post some of my observations from having about 200 people try the Wedge over the past few days. Some things were quite unexpected, but I would like other players to have a chance to post first, if they are going to. Hopefully more will add their thoughts here.

Cheers,
Dave
_________________
Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

[DubbaCTrumpetMSU]

DrDave,
I will be testing the Wedge in Jazz Band tomorrow, and I have a lesson tuesday, so I will show my teacher(a doctoral student at UNT and pro), and will probably post more thoughts. When I explained it over the phone, he kind of said 'It's about time someone made this.' So, he may be all for it. (especially when he hears my G. ) Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes. I'm still suprised how good a 3E sounds with my concert stuff, but I still want to get my hands on a 3C model. I hope I sold some for you at TMEA. I know my playing convinced me to get one. Another question...will you ever make one out of a 1 1/4C? I felt the bit of difference between the 1 1/2 and 1 1/4 gave me a bit more depth to the sound. Could it be done?

Russ

[DrDave]

Hi Russ,

A few players have asked for something between a Wedge 1.5 and 1 rim, since the Wedge 1 rim feels quite a bit bigger than a Bach 1.5 and even bigger than a Bach 1 1/4 and Bach 1. In the next few months I think I will produce a rim half way between the Wedge 1 and 1.5.

But to be honest, your sound on the Wedge 3C was easily a match for your Bach 1.5 when you played it at the show. If you want a little more fullness in your sound but like the 3 rim you might consider going to a 3B for a more orchestral sound instead going with the 1.5.

There were about 200 players who tried the Wedge at the TMEA. One of the things that I learned from trying sizes for so many people in a row is that the correlation between the player’s regular piece and Wedge size is only rough at best. I am not sure why, but can think of several possible explanations.

It could be that the regular size is not optimal in some way. Depending on what component of their playing the person has emphasized they may have compromised one aspect of their sound for another. After all every mouthpiece choice is a compromise of one sort. One player might be using a piece that is a bit big in order to get a full sound at the expense of range, and another might compromise fullness by choosing a smaller piece in favour of range.

Because of the unique way that the Wedge interacts with a players setup these various comprises might play out differently on a Wedge than on other equipment. So the player might be able to meet his or her needs with a very different size. I have had players go from a Bach 7C to a Wedge 3C; from a Bach 1C to a Wedge 1.5C; or a Bach 1.5C to Wedge 3C, all with good results. Maybe they were in the wrong size in the first place, or maybe Wedge sizing is just different.

Initially I thought that players should find a size that feels the same as their current piece, or move up a size in the Wedge. But after the TMEA I have had some other thoughts. When you think about it what matters most it is performance, or the sound coming out of the end of the horn. A mouthpiece might feel a different size than another, but provided that performance does not suffer the new size can often become the new “normal” quite quickly. Many of us have experienced this sensation when changing sizes. Just try playing a euphonium for half and hour and try going back to your trumpet piece if you are not used to doubling. The trumpet piece feels tiny.

So rather than asking players if a Wedge feels close to their regular piece I think it is more important to see if it feels comfortable and performs better than their current piece throughout the range of the instrument, or at least within the same range that matters most to the player. That is why many of you who tried a Wedge and said “Wow! I have never played that high before” immediately heard me insist that you check the fullness of the bottom register in order to make sure it was still there, and to compare the sound to your current piece if you had it with you.

The unique feature of the Wedge is that because of the increased efficiency of the rim it tends to have a larger, fuller, more focused sound, with greater ease of upper register playing than a conventional piece of similar size. So downsizing is often an option for some players, which serves to further augment the upper range performance.

As I have been writing this I just thought to check the posted feedback results on Wedge sizes. Here they are:

Size:
Wedge same size 53%
Wedge smaller 26%
Wedge larger 22%

Cup comparison:
Wedge same depth 44%
Wedge deeper 35%
Wedge shallower 24%

This confirms that players have tended to settle on sizes the same or a bit smaller than their current piece, as I suspected might be the case from my experience at the TMEA. Less than 1/4 actually go larger. However, the average smaller size does not seem to correspond to a compromised sound, as the following shows:

Low range sound:
Wedge sounds similar 40%
Wedge sounds better 34%
Wedge not as good 26%

Mid range sound:
Wedge sounds similar 61%
Wedge sounds better 34%
Wedge not as good 13%

Upper range sound:
Wedge sounds similar 50%
Wedge sounds better 32%
Wedge not as good 18%

What is interesting in the above statistics is the opposing trends of the majority of players choosing a similar or smaller size, and yet a minority of players reporting a compromised sound in the lower register. Also remember that these stats include players who returned the Wedge. Despite the average improved sound in all registers very few players report poorer range.

Ease of upper register:
Wedge easier 58%
No difference 24%
Wedge harder 18%

The ease in upper register in not fully explained by downsizing though, because a significant number of players do settle on a similar or larger rim and still get improved range.

So, I still do not fully understand what is going on here, but the trends are very interesting. I think it is summed up best by what players kept saying over and over again. “WOW! This is different. Very interesting.”

Finally, your comment that you could play the notes before but that you now own them is typical. In the next few weeks more notes will probably come if you follow the usual pattern. It will be very interesting to hear progress reports.

I’ll post more observations from the TMEA later.
_________________
Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

[DubbaCTrumpetMSU]

I may have to have you send a 3C and 3B when I order them and see what my teacher thinks. Hopefully my 2 Monettes on eBay will sell and I'll be able to order one. I do like that 10* back though-that seems to just open everything up. Anyway, I'll post more after jazz band today at 11, perhaps. Let's see how it performs when I really need it to.

[DrDave]

Hi Russ,

When you order we can use the size trial program. When you pay with a credit card for one mouthpiece I will send two for you to try. You just send back whcih ever one you do not prefer.

Cheers,
Dave
_________________
Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

[Bill W]

Hey Everyone!!! I just thought I'd update the group as to my continuing adventure in wedge trials. I continue to settle into my wedge 5FC for lead and have determined that the 5 backbore works better for me than the Q that I started with. The feel and resistance are about the same but the intonation and slotting are better with the 5 than with the slightly longer Q backbore. Compared to my Monette BL3, I continue to enjoy, better sound, and vastly improved articulation and ability to color my sound, particularly for Maynard-ish ballads, Broadway show-books., etc. Bravo. This one is definitely a keeper. I may try a 5* backbore to see if I can get just a bit less resistance.

Phase II - Last week, I received from Dr. Dave both a 3BC and a 1.5BC with a 10* backbore to see how they compare to my current classical/legit/orchestral mouthpieces, a Monette B2S3 (Wynton's current piece) and a Monette C2 for my C trumpet. My playing is probably 75%+ shows and lead playing so this is for the smallest portion of my trumpet endeavors. I must report that the Wedges do not measure up to these Monette's for my purposes. However, this seems to be due to the cup shape, throat and backbore and not the rim. The Wedges have much more resistance and do not sound nearly as full, open and dark as the Monettes. I have a very naturally bright sound and need a dark sounding mouthpiece for this repertoire. Also, the Monette's response, slotting and flexibility are superior to these two Wedge models.

On the positive side. I really like the Wedge 3BC rim. Oh, for a mouthpiece that combines this rim with the cup, throat and backbore of the Monette!!!!. A merger of the 2 Dave's.... Hmmmmm. I'd be very curious to see if others who are participating here and who are trying the Wedge as an alternative to Monette Pieces are having any similar reactions, both for lead playing and for legit.

Bill
_________________
Bill Wasserman
Shires B-LW
Shires Custom C
1962 Quesnon Flugel
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iMEHat1PXV0 Playing Maynard's "Hey There"

[DrDave]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for sharing your feedback on the legit pieces I sent you. I have a couple of suggestions, and some news to share.

I found at the TMEA that many players prefer a much bigger backbore on the Wedge than they would use with a conventional mouthpiece. Also, people on Monette gear tend to like a Warburton series 80 heavy backbore to darken the sound. So if you have local access to a Warburton series 80 backbore in an 11 or 12 size you might want to give that a try and see what happens. It might help, or you might just prefer Monette pieces for legit. They are of course excellent products and hard to beat.

As for hybrid pieces, I am in discussions with Mark Atkinson of Atkinson Custom Horns (http://www.atkinsonhorns.com/about.cfm) to develop a line of Wedge mouthpieces for French horn that will consist of a Wedge rim that screws onto his mouthpiece. It would be entirely possible to do something similar with any trumpet mouthpiece. So far no other manufacturers have expressed interest, but who knows what might happen.

I have had many requests to return to doing modifications of existing pieces. I have resisted because the modification process is complex and introduces some compromises in the rim shape that requires either making the cup more shallow, or eliminating some of features of the Wedge rim. I am currently working on a rim design and modification workflow that might allow me to offer such a service on a limited basis to those who want a Wedge rim on a very special mouthpiece that they wish to play. I am also looking into the possibility of converting a mouthpiece such as your Monette to a screw rim that would take a Wedge contour. That would probably be a better option and would let the player switch between a variety of Wedge rim configurations. Someone like Mark Curry could probably do that kind of work for you now. It would require sacrificing a Wedge top to provide the rim for your piece, but I am sure it is do-able. Mark could do the work and not worry about patent violation, since he would just be using my rim as a component in a modular system as opposed to copying it.

At this point our shop is not tooled up for that kind of work, but I am considering a move in that direction. I’d give Mark a call and see what he says.

I have also started work on a Wedge heavyweight backbore designed for those who like the extra mass.

Cheers!
_________________
Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

[ljazztrm]

I played a lead gig last night with a loud rock band that doesn't have good micing. It's one of the loudest gigs I do. The 10.5FC cut through like a 'hot knife through butter', and I didn't have to 'overblow' or anything. Dr.Dave's FC cup is based on a Warburton ESV cup....If you have tried the Mark Curry 600 'S' series or the Reeves 'ES' cups, you'll know what I'm talking about...although I do usually bottom out on Reeves 'ES' cups...but, my point is, the FC is an excellent lead mouthpiece when you have to play super loud and still want chops for the next gig! All the best, Lex.
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

[Bill W]

Dear Lex:

I agree. I am really impressed with the FC cup. I have tried lead pieces from just about every maker out there and Dr. Dave's is a great combination of rim and cup. I am so glad that I was able to adapt so well to a wider rim as well so as to improve my sound and articulation without sacrificing range and power.

Dr. Dave: Thanks so much for your detailed response to my last post. Based upon my experience with the legit Monettes, I think the difference is more closely related to the throat size and not the bore taper, although I may be wrong. In a direct comparison, the Monette throat is visibly huge when compared to the Warburton standard and the backbore, at least from what I can see, actually finishes narrower than does the Warburton 10*. The main difference in feel seems to be resistance, which fits these observations. I think a mouthpiece that has greater resistance is automatically brighter sounding. Also, I find they have less presence and color, especially playing low and soft, at least for me.

Bill
_________________
Bill Wasserman
Shires B-LW
Shires Custom C
1962 Quesnon Flugel
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iMEHat1PXV0 Playing Maynard's "Hey There"

[DrDave]

Hi Guys

I think you are right on track Bill. I am going to play around a bit at opening up the throat of a Wedge. I have opened up a couple of lead pieces before and it worked well. Perhaps you would like to give one a try as a "beta tester". I think the combination of a heavy #10 backbore with a 24 throat would be interesting for a start. Want me to send you one?

I was up all last night with a diver in the hyperbaric chamber. I had some time on my hands, and I think I found a solution to modifying existing pieces in a way that will preserve cup depth and incorporate all essential curves of the Wedge rim. I am going to start some prototype Monette modifications first and post back here when I have some results.

Cheers,
Dave
_________________
Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

[Bill W]

Dear Dave:

I'd love to be a Beta guinea pig!!! Thanks.

Bill
_________________
Bill Wasserman
Shires B-LW
Shires Custom C
1962 Quesnon Flugel
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iMEHat1PXV0 Playing Maynard's "Hey There"