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New Mouthpiece: The Wedge


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Don Lee
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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Location: California

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 1:43 pm    Post subject: How is ITG? Reply with quote

I know you must be very busy, but if you happen to check in let us know how it's going!
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DrDave
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Location: Gabriola Island, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject: Report from ITG Reply with quote

Hi Don,

It has indeed been a busy couple of days. There has been quite a lot of interest a many people have tried the prototypes. Impressions seem to break down roughly into 3 main groups.
1. Just don't like it.
Some find it just too unusual, different feeling, or that it does not help their playing.

2. Interesting, but not sure.
This group thinks they could get used to it and can see some benefits, but are a bit unsure after a 2 minute trial. Fortunately they will have a week to try the production model before they have to decide whether or not to return it for a refund.

3. Enthusiastically positive
This group really likes it. Several people have gone back and forth play testing between a stock Bach piece or modification of the same size who had benefits that you could clearly hear - better range and flexibility. A few times there were several people standing around watching this and it was quite evident to all that this was not a subtle difference. A couple of well established lead players reported significant improvements in ease of upper register and flexibility.

I have confirmed that dental structure is important. Those with a natural wedge or very flat, vertical teeth find it less comfortable and often do not like it.

So all in all I am very pleased. A few players who liked it said they had been following this thread and would post on their return. I welcome feedback from them, or from anyone who tried the Wedge.

By the way, the website is just getting started at www.wedgemouthpiece.com.

Cheers,
Dave
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Arpeggio
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Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 153

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dave,
Perhaps you're already doing this -- but in case not:

I would suggest supplying each player with a mpc AND some sort of questionnaire so you can collect specific information and look for commonalities among the peope who like the new piece (and among those who don't, and those who find it so-so). A number of individual characteristics come to mind that each player could address via such a questionnaire! If a questionnaire is too clinical, then some other method of eliciting characteristic information would be helpful -- other easy methods exist.

Given that there are so many contours in the piece, I can well imagine that it would be perfect for some -- and just the opposite for others. Ultimately, the data collected might provide the basis for engineering a few "standard" Wedge designs, each of which would be appropriate for players with this set of characteristics, players with that set of characteristics, and so on.

As a careful scientist in a previous life, this seems to me to be a good way to get a head start on the "why's" behind the responses you're receiving. AND a good way to make use of your early experience and gain useful design insight as to what would be wise to do next.
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DrDave
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:13 pm    Post subject: Questions Reply with quote

I thought I would answer a couple of questions from here and from people at the ITG.

Is there a honeymoon period?

The short answer is that don't know. There is certainly a honeymoon period for many mouthpieces and the Wedge might be no different. Worse yet, one might postulate that by using the Wedge you might actually get weak or lazy from using a "cheater" mouthpiece, and after temporary improvement, you could experience a gradual return to your baseline abilities before you started using the Wedge, and an associated deterioration in your playing on a conventional piece. Scary thought, and I probably should not have brought it up.

However there is an important observation that leads me to believe that this will not be the case. So far only two people have any experience playing the Wedge for any length of time - about four weeks. Both players independently noted an unexpected and unusual side effect from playing a Wedge. We both found that when we returned to a regular mouthpiece of the same size our range had increased. This was a bit surprising, because it has not been my experience that this would happen when changing mouthpieces to one that improved my rnage. My theory is that the Wedge gradually conforms your chops into a more efficient setup, which translates into improved performance on any piece.

I think that this phenomenon results from the unique way in which the Wedge improves performance. Most mouthpieces that improve range, at least temporarily, do so by supporting your chops in some way. The Wedge works by freeing your chops to do what you are already asking them to do, without being restricted by the unnecessary contact between the mouthpiece and lips at the corners. This is a fundamental difference between the Wedge and some other "range enhancing" mouthpieces. It is too early to tell if this effect will be experienced by other players, and if it will be sustained, but so far my experience with other aspects of the Wedge has been consistent with many of those who tried it recently at the ITG, so I have every reason to believe that others will share this observation as well. Anyway, what I think about this does not really matter much. You, the players will determine whether or not my theory is correct.

How long it takes to acclimatize?
Many players at the ITG had an improvement instantly in terms of range, and especially in flexibility. The flexibility comes right away. The range change progresses over time. The two of us who have a few weeks playing it exclusively found that performance continued to improve over several days.

When do you tire on the Wedge - at the same time as a conventional piece?
I find that I tire less quickly, I think because I am not having to work as hard, and specifically because I am not having to work against the mouthpiece at the corners. I do not know about the effect of air leak at the corners. We'll have to wait for feedback from owners of prototypes or production models.

Why the money back guarantee?
The genesis of the Wedge was a desire to improve a trumpet player's performance. I do not particularly want to contribute to the thousands of mouthpieces cluttering trumpet player's drawers and shelves. The current wedge will not work for everyone, but if people feel free to try it without financial risk at least we will find out who it does and does not work for, and with proper feedback from players, perhaps why. That might guide the development of the next generation of Wedge that better suits those players for whom this one is not a good choice. Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing? Is this a bad business move on my part? I have been told that it is. Do I care? Maybe. But I think it I'll sleep better doing things this way. It just seems fair to me.

Now, there are some limits on the money back guarantee. If you buy more than one size in order to find the one you like and then just the return the sizes that do not fit, the shipping is on you. However I will still refund the cost of the mouthpiece. If you buy several sizes and return them all because the Wedge does not suit you I will refund your shipping as well. Again, that only seems fair.

There will be one requirement for the refund. When you register on-line for your return and refund there will be a short questionnaire about why you do not like the mouthpiece, and a very short survey about your setup and dental structure. That will help me in developing the next generation to meet the needs of most players.
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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree w/ a previous poster that rather than concentrating on one design to suit most players, you should develop more than one design, together with insight as to which works best for who ... in a perfect world

I play a small cup diameter - custom size, with a natural wedge to my teeth. I think the contours that would help me would be different from what you've currently got, but I think cup diameter as well as cup depth should be irrevelent in that if you've got a working design, it'll work across those variables.

I also want to point out Rhinehardt's idea of breathing through the corners would probably help me a LOT - but I've never been able to do it.
Seems something like this would help ... keep up the good work!
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DrDave
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Joined: 30 Jan 2003
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Location: Gabriola Island, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for bringing this up. I should clarify my previous post. We all agree that more than one model would be ideal . In addition to offering a variety of cup sizes and depths I anticipate having a variety of curvatures of the lateral dip to meet the needs of different players, not one model to suit all.
Cheers,
Dave
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Don Lee
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:18 pm    Post subject: ITG Reply with quote

Dave:

Any more news on ITG and the Wedge? Also, for those of us who have never had the good fortune to go, maybe you call tell us what it was like as a vendor.

Thanks,

Don Lee
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very interesting topic here! great to see people messing with stuff you seem to have thought this through alot, best of luck with it! I will stay on this thread!

do you notice the tone becoming any brighter?
do you think it would work on a deep mouthpiece?

Mike
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pushyred
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Joined: 15 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was at Itg and tried one of these mouthpieces. I must admitt not giving it much of a trial. I had been in the exhibit rooms too long and had just about reached overload from all the noise. However, I must say that I have thought about a non symetric rim before. I have a few crazy teeth and it always seems that a standard rim puts too much pressure on one side of my chops.

Having said that, I found that this mouthpiece did feel usable and somehow more ergonomic to my lips. I only tried it very briefly but I think the idea has merit and I hope you continue your research and development.
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DrDave
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

So far I am still hoping to get some feedback here from someone who was at the ITG. (This was originally posted before I saw Michelle's post above) . I am sure it will filter in over the next few days.

One person has commented that a modified Bach 1 1/2C was brighter than a stock piece. A couple of people at the ITG thought it was unchanged. I think the modification to an existing piece might brighten things in some cases, but not by much. The production models will be designed to compensate for this.

The new rim contour will work on a deep or shallow mouthpiece. I can play higher and with more flexibility on a modified Bach 1 1/2C than I can on a stock 3C, and the modified 1 1/2C is much darker, so the change in range is independent of cup depth.

The ITG was LOUD. I was across from Edwards Trumpets, who was beside Warburton Mouthpieces. The big thrill was that I shared a table with Jerome Callet. We watched each other's stuff during breaks. It was great to be sharing space with him, because people would drop by to see him and then check out the "new guy in town". Mr Callet was very gracious. In fact everyone was very supportive and encouraging, even some notable, well established manufacturers and players, who did not have to pay me the time of day. It really is a great community.

Dr Dave
The mouthpiece surgeon
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Last edited by DrDave on Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DrDave
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:05 pm    Post subject: Want to see something funny? Reply with quote

Hi Michelle,
Thanks for your honest feedback. In-put from anyone who tried the piece is much appreciated.

My buddy just had a look at my "workshop". When he finished laughing he said I should post photos of my high tech production facility. So here is how it looked when I left for ITG. Very impressive, eh? (OK, I am Canadian)




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Don Lee
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:47 pm    Post subject: Nice Shop Reply with quote

Hey Dave, maybe you should have shown Jerry some pics of your shop just to let him know you're a serious competitor!..... only kidding of course!

It's nice to know that so many of the people in the community are really supportive. It's great to hear all the details of your time at ITG.


Thank you,

Don Lee
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DrDave
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll make sure that the machine shop doing the CNC machining for the production pieces is a little more professional than where I have been doing the prototypes.

I am reminded of a quote by a character in a Kurt Vonnegut novel who, when commenting on the mess in his office, pointed to his head and said "If you think that is bad, you should see what it looks like in here".

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bach_again
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Workshop is looking good :d infact much cleaner and more organised than mine!

Mike
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ItsMikeE
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Joined: 18 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I met Dr Dave at the ITG.
I tried his mouthpieces for a few minutes.
Initially I could not feel that they were making any difference beyond feeling a little strange.
After a few minutes I noticed that I was getting to an E instead of my more normal D. I switched back to my own mouthpiece and was still getting an E.
This ties in with Dave's personal experience and with some others.
It did not make sense to me, but it definitely had an effect so I have ordered one.
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cb3
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:21 am    Post subject: ok Reply with quote

This is a very interesting concept. For the people that told you it is a bad business move to offer the guarantee, they are money hungry operators who don't care to help trumpet players in a meaningful way. Someone comes up with a new magic mouthpiece at least once a month and shamelessly takes our money without caring if it works for us or not because they've got their money. I'm glad to see a honest manufacturer like you.
Are you still offering to let us send you a mouthpiece to modify at no charge? Also to make it 100% clear, I suggest you show a picture of exactly how to position the mouthpiece on your lips on your website. Some of us understand but this will keep you from having to explain it for the rest of your life.
Thanks for all that you are doing.
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DrDave
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi cb3,

I think I can manage a few more free prototypes. What size do you play?
Thanks for the feedback on the orientation issue. I'll add something to the website.
Cheers,
DrDave
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patdublc
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tested some Wedge models at ITG as well. I'm very encouraged by this design as it frees up some tissue and muscles that need not be constricted. If you've ever been to an ITG exhibit room, then you know that you can't really do any deep level testing because of the noise and people moving about. So, I'll save a more detailed review for once I've had a chance to play something in my own envionrment.

Dr. Dave is a very personable guy with an upbest attitude. He seems to have some good ideas that might help a bunch of players out. Count me in.

pat
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you know, you could always incorporate some novel and interesting ideas into that piece...dayum boy, there's a lot going on there. good luck with the scheme. hits me you have so much going on that there is a lot of room for experimentation on variations.
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tptguy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you see the images such as DrDave just posted? If I double click nothing happens. If I right click to see image I get a notice that path not found. Thanks, Kyle
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