New Mouthpiece: The Wedge

DrDave · Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject:

Hi Doug,

You pretty much have it right. The blank is turned from a bar of cylindrical brass or SST stock on a CNC lathe, and then engraved with a 4th axis spindle on the same lathe. This produces essentially a "conventional" mouthpiece. It is then removed from the lathe and placed in CNC mill to have the rim machined. Stainless steel tops actually require three machining runs to complete the milling process.

The top then requires hand blending of the two cutting surfaces before the final polishing process before it is plated. So there are two additional steps compared to making a conventional mouthipece - milling and blending. Every piece gets a final cleaning and an inspection by me prior to shipping.

Our backbores are made on the same CNC lathe using custom modified boring bars as opposed to reamers. This allows us to keep the tolerances very close, produces a very smooth internal surface, and means we do not have to worry about reamer wear changing our specs over time. It is a slower way to do it though. We use 304 surgical SST for tops and 303 for backbores.

Cheers,

Dave
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Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

Foxytrpt · Veteran Member Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 277

[quote="DrDave"]OK, it is time to let the cat out of the bag. Some of you might remember a few weeks ago I posted about modifying an Asymmetric mouthpiece to improve its playing characteristics. Well to make a long story short, that got me experimenting with modifications of conventional mouthpieces based on various theories of embouchure formation, how tooth angle affects range, and the anatomy and physiology of the lips and face. In the end I came up with a new mouthpiece design that I am calling The Wedge, for the following reasons.

[b]1. Sloping lateral rim shoulders[/b]
The lateral shoulders of each side of the rim, which lie over corners, slope sharply away from the center of the mouthpiece. That portion of the lateral rim in close contact with the lip is therefore significantly narrower than the superior and inferior portions of the rim. Hence The Wedge name.

[b]2. Varying rim contour and high point [/b]
The rim high point and contour varies throughout its circumference. The superior and inferior portions of the rim, those parts that make contact with the central part of the upper and lower lips, have a high point shifted to the outside by a pronounced rounding and cupping of the inner rim, producing a very soft bite. This soft bite is actually enough to slightly increase the volume of the cup. The high point of the lateral aspect or the rim is shifted medially to a point very close to its inner aspect by the sloping shoulders of the lateral rim.

[b]3. Shifted lateral rim contour medially toward the centre of the mouthpiece[/b]In proportion to the degree of slope of the lateral rim, the plane of the metal removed impinges on the inner border of the inner cup. This has the effect of moving the inner cup border medially, and contributing to a slightly oval shape to the cup. The longitudinal axis of the oval is oriented in a superior and inferior direction when playing.

[b]4. Lateral dip of rim contour[/b]
This sloping of the lateral rim also introduces a lateral dip in the side profile of the rim, which is more acute than the corresponding contour of the lips and supporting teeth. This dip is designed to transfer pressure from lateral to superior/inferior rims. The cup volume is slightly reduced due to the dip in the rim, but this is offset by the increased volume from rounding of the superior and inferior rim, so the net effect on cup volume is minimal.

[b]5. Variable inner rim bite[/b]
The variable rim contour produces a variable inner rim bite, being sharper and narrower laterally than superiorly and inferiorly.

[b]6. Oval shape of the cup.[/b]
The cup is an oval shape due to a combination of the medially shifted lateral rim contour in conjunction with the pronounced rounding of the inner rim contour superiorly and inferiorly.

[b]Playing Characteristics[/b]
The rim contour of the Wedge interacts with the player's anatomy and physiology in a unique way. The sloping lateral shoulders leave space for improved lip range of motion. This improves range, endurance, and flexibility. The increased space for lip movement also improves the ability to open the corners of the lips for a breath, and to then replace them to their original position without the difficulty associated with conventional rims. The central portions of the upper and lower lips are pinned in place by the relatively wider upper and lower rims while the lateral lips are able to move while breathing.

The arterial blood supply of the lip courses from lateral to medial. Venous and lymphatic drainage of the lips courses from medial to lateral. Pressure of the lateral rim of conventional mouthpieces impairs blood and lymph flow at this point, resulting in impaired blood supply, oxygen and nutrient starvation of the central lip tissues, decreased lymphatic and venous blood drainage, and lip swelling. Impedance to flow is a function of the degree of compression of vessels, and the length of the vessel over which that restriction is applied. These factors produce player fatigue and impaired endurance and general playing ability. The sloping lateral shoulders of the Wedge offloads pressure from the lateral rims. The decreased pressure acting over a shorter length of vascular structures improves blood and lymphatic flow, which decreases lip swelling and fatigue.

Transfer of a greater proportion of surface area of contact from lateral to the relatively wider superior and inferior portions of the rim, which lie over the smooth surfaces of the teeth instead of the sharp teeth edges, also improves comfort for any given degree of mouthpiece pressure. The pronounced soft bite and cupping of the upper and lower rims produces inferior/superior lip compression, rather than cutting off the note as moderate pressure is applied.

The slope of the lateral rim can vary in contour, degree, and orientation. The contour of the sloping shoulders can be flat or rounded. The slope will affect the overall width the mouthpiece and degree of oval shape of the cup. The orientation of the slope of the two lateral rims can be parallel or angled with respect to one another. Angled orientations will produce an inequality between the lengths of the rim upper and lower rim segments. In playing the instrument the wider or narrower rim segments can be placed on the top or bottom lip depending on player preference.

The net effects of these modifications is improved comfort, endurance, range, and flexibility without any sacrifice in tone or other paying characteristics of any given mouthpiece cup. The slight decrease in cup volume is minimal and does not appreciably affect the tone. For example, a modified Bach 3C will easily outperform a Bach 3D or 3E in terms ease of playing and range, but maintains the tonal characteristics of the 3C. In my case it has changed my usable range from high D to high F. And the F is huge.

I can do shakes from high D to F, and do sustained lip trills on high C without difficulty. I am not able to do [b]any[/b] of these things on a conventional mouthpiece. The Wedge feels different, but very comfortable, and takes no time to learn how to play.

Because my patent application on the Wedge was just filed I have only been able to let a very few players try the mouthpiece, but so far each player has reported a similar effect. I should have feedback from a few more in the next few days. At this point I am still in the prototype phase. I have made mouthpieces based on modifications of Bach 1 ½ C, 1 ½ B, 3C, and Warburton 3SV, 3M, 3MD, 3D, 4SV, and 4M. The results are the same in each case, about a 3rd increase in usable range, better flexibility, with minimal or no change in tone.

[b]What’s next?[/b]
I will be meeting with local machine shops this week to see about CNC machining of a limited run of production models based on popular Bach sizes. A regular lathe is not going to cut it for these things. Hopefully I will be able to get some completed pieces, or at least some prototypes in the hands of players so that I can get some honest feedback from TH members very soon. Then we will just have to see what happens. Either the few players (two of them are pros) who have tried the Wedge are anomalies in terms of their reactions and this thing does not really work, or this could be a very interesting development. I know my own playing will never be the same.[/quote]

whatever.
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quad_c_screamer · Veteran Member Joined: 06 Sep 2004 Posts: 440

Did you seriously just say nothing other than "whatever"? A very immature way to go about it. I was a bit skeptical at first, too, but this is not as much of a gimmick as the assymetrical mouthpieces or anything like that. This piece has made all of my playing better, apart from losing a tiny bit of ym upper register.

shastastan · Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject:

I agree with Quad... I started with a Wedge 5BG and had lost a couple of notes up top, but switched to a 5CG and got my range back immediately. I was so impressed with my increased endurance that I bought a flugel wedge. I have been playin it for the past week and have a higher range with it than my previous piece. All that being said, the posts on this forum show new mps coming out every week---each one supposedly superior to all the others. Paraphrasing....."The proof of the pudding is in the playing." Dr Dave has a very fair trial policy; Why not try one?

Stan

PW-Factor · Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject:

I am loving my Wedge 3CC/27M/L in Stainless Steel more every time I play it. When combined with my Lawler, recently back from the shop with a new, bigger bell and leadpipe, I am loving my sound. I have a SST 3DC and Gold 3C on the way right now, plus an ML Backbore to try alongside my L backbore. As an all around mouthpiece, I am loving this. Changing rim/bowl combinations and keeping the same blow characteristics will be nice, though I may choose to have a more open mouthpiece for small jazz, orchestra, and flugel than I use for lead playing.

Plus, Dr Dave is a great guy to work with. Extremely understanding, patient, and wants you to get what's right for you, even if sometimes that means not a Wedge. For me, though, it's a Wedge, no question.
_________________
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New Orleans Funk - The Big Lagniappe

Raw Brass HB2 - Hammond PW
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mcombo · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:43 am Post subject: Trade?

Does anyone have a size 12F (or 12FC) you'd like to trade for a silver 10.5FC? I bought a stainless steel 10.5FC that has replaced my silver version.

PW-Factor · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject:

If anyone had any doubts as to what a good guy Dr Dave is, here is an E-Mail he sent me earlier this evening, after I expressed how much I was liking my new 3DC:

Hi Patrick,

So, if I read between the lines, I guess you are liking the 3DC quite a bit

The nice thing is that if it is that good at this point, and you follow the
curve typical of others, you are going to be even happier as you fully
adjust to it.

Give the backbores some time. The ML/ML slots will be different than the
ML/L, but I predict that if you are feeling that the ML/L is not quite
enough resistance the ML/ML will fall into line if you devote just a couple
of days to it. There is no great rush. I want you to get it figured out
before you feel you have to send anything back. Hopefully the safari is
about over

You have made my day.

Cheers,
Dave
_________________
Ska/Reggae - The Selectones
New Orleans Funk - The Big Lagniappe

Raw Brass HB2 - Hammond PW
Gen II ACB Doubler Flugel - Curry 5FL

badiddley · Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:21 am Post subject:

Ordered mine with the trial for sizes. 3DC-27ML and 3C-27L. SST tops. Can't wait to try em out.

PW-Factor · Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:35 am Post subject:

hansonsf · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2006 Posts: 670

kramergfy · Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:05 pm Post subject:

DrDave · Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject:

I have not had a chance to get a SST backbore into a big room with someone to listen at the other end, so I do not have much more information. I am sending the first few out to players now, so we will see what the feedback is before too long. At this point the jury is still out.

Cheers,
Dave
_________________
Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

PW-Factor · Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject:

This is a bit of a bump.

I have finally reached the end of my safari, for now, at least. I am playing a Gold-Plated 3DC with a Warburton 8* backbore. It gives me a broad spectrum of sounds. When played with my "old" embouchure and mp and below, it has a smoky, cloudy quality to the attacks, and a great, almost flugel-like, sound. When I use my new, improved embouchure (which was greatly aided by the Wedge) I am developing cleaner and cleaner attacks are the piano volumes, while still maintaining a brilliant sound. My range has improve by nearly a 4th, and my tone has improved in all registers.

I am off to a rehearsal now, to play it some more. I guess this is the first half of a testimonial, and a chance to get some more eyes on this thread again.

Patrick
_________________
Ska/Reggae - The Selectones
New Orleans Funk - The Big Lagniappe

Raw Brass HB2 - Hammond PW
Gen II ACB Doubler Flugel - Curry 5FL

PW-Factor · Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject:

At first, like most people, I was a bit skeptical about trying a Wedge. After all, mouthpiece have largely stayed in the same style for over a hundred years. And most mouthpieces that deviated greatly from the old standards (Asymmetrical, etc) seem to be gimmicky, and rarely work for everyone. The Wedge is different, though. It takes all of the best things about modern mouthpieces (comfortable rims of varying sizes, a variety of cups depths and shapes, and interchangeable backbores) and improves on them with the "Wedge" design.

On my conventional equipment, I was doing fairly well. I had been playing for 10 years when I decided to try a Wedge. In private lessons, my teacher had brought it to my attention that my corner control was poor, and needed to be worked on for a more efficient embouchure. I found it hard to stray away from the embouchure I had built over ten years of playing on my conventional mouthpeices. However, the sloped edges of the Wedge encouraged a centrally focused embouchure, making me use the muscles of the corners of my mouth, rather than "hooking my chops in" and letting everything outside the cup "go slack" to some degree. I developed, over about a 2 month size trial, a more focused, active, efficient embouchure, that improves almost every facet of my playing.

I will not say that this mouthpiece made the horn play itself, because that would lead people astray. It did, however, promote a very positive change in my playing. Through the switch to the Wedge, dilligent practice, and a lot of concentration, it truly made me a better player. My attacks are cleaner, my tone is improved, and my consistent range has increased nearly a 4th. I am pleasantly surprised beyond my wildest expectations at what this mouthpiece has meant for my playing. It won't work any miracles on its own, but if you let it guide you in the right direction, and put in the time and effort required to become a better player, it can certainly feel like a miracle worker.

And speaking of miracle workers, Dr Dave is, without a doubt, my favorite guy I have ever done business with. He responds to e-mail almost always within a day, and my first e-mail I sent him, which I sent at Midnight on a weeknight, was answered when I awoke at 7 the next morning. You can't get that kind of service anywhere else. Not only that, but after paying for one mouthpiece, I received two complete mouthpiece in the mail, and after experimenting with 5 different tops and 4 different backbores, we finally dialed in on the right mouthpiece for me. Even two months after the initial payment was sent, and the first mouthpieces were shipped to me, Dr Dave and I still communicated on a regular basis, and he still sent me stuff to try and get everything exactly right for my playing.

So, to anyone who is skeptical about trying a Wedge, I understand. I was there, too. But with a trial program that not only lets you try multiple mouthpieces for the price of one, but will give you a very large chunk of your money back should you choose to not stick with a Wedge, you really have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Dr Dave will lead you in the right direction for you, even if *gasp* that means something other than a Wedge. That's right, Dr Dave even freely admits the Wedge is not for everybody, and doesn't give anybody any extra grief about not choosing his option for a mouthpiece. If the Wedge is your thing, though, it's a great feeling.

Yours Truly,
Patrick Wright
_________________
Ska/Reggae - The Selectones
New Orleans Funk - The Big Lagniappe

Raw Brass HB2 - Hammond PW
Gen II ACB Doubler Flugel - Curry 5FL

FLgargoyle · Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:00 pm Post subject:

Dr Dave is really a great guy- very accommodating during my trial period. I kinda feel bad that for the time being, I've switched back to regular mouthpieces. Oddly enough, I took to the Wedge right away, and felt the safari was over. Over time, though (2 months) I developed control issues, and tired quicker. I have a couple big gigs coming up, and decided to go back to what I'm most comfortable with. I'm playing great on conventional mouthpieces now- much better than before I got the Wedge. So- I'm more confused than ever. Despite my mixed message, I still highly recommend at least trying the Wedge, and see how it works for you. I really like the stainless steel, and if I'm unable to adjust to the Wedge permanently, I'm going to have to find SS mouthpieces in conventional shapes.
_________________
Jay
'64 Olds Super Trumpet
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gutlo · Regular Member Joined: 10 Feb 2006 Posts: 86

[quote="FLgargoyle"]Dr Dave is really a great guy- very accommodating during my trial period. I kinda feel bad that for the time being, I've switched back to regular mouthpieces. Oddly enough, I took to the Wedge right away, and felt the safari was over. Over time, though (2 months) I developed control issues, and tired quicker. I have a couple big gigs coming up, and decided to go back to what I'm most comfortable with. I'm playing great on conventional mouthpieces now- much better than before I got the Wedge. So- I'm more confused than ever. Despite my mixed message, I still highly recommend at least trying the Wedge, and see how it works for you. I really like the stainless steel, and if I'm unable to adjust to the Wedge permanently, I'm going to have to find SS mouthpieces in conventional shapes.[/quote]

Some thoughts as to why you are playing better on a conventional mouthpiece after rejecting the Wedge:

The best way to play the Wedge, in my experience, is with a "pucker" type embouchure. The muscles surrounding the lips are brought forward, and the shape of the Wedge mouthpiece holds the embouchure in position. There is no stretching of the lips, or "smile", and the therefore the corners are brought into the entire shape of the embouchure.

Playing this way on a stainless steel Wedge has allowed me to play clear, in tune double G's with a full, rich tone, something I could never do on any other mouthpiece, Callet and Warbuton included. Agility and range have also geometrically improved, along with intonation. Changes in dynamic, pitch, and articulation are made with a minimum of embouchure movement, resulting in greater endurance.

You likely started playing with a semblance of a "pucker" type embouchure, as the Wedge shape demands it. Since this was a foreign experience, and transitional issues probably arose as your musculature was changing the more you played, you had to make a decsion: revolutionize your embouchure, or go back to your original mouthpiece. Since you had important gigs to play, you did the practical thing. You were likely left with the strengthened muscles that helped you with playing your round mouthpiece, but that strength will disappear as those muscles are not used on the round mouthpiece.

If you ever have a 3-4 weeks where you can kick back and explore the potential of the Wedge, you would likely be a much better player for the effort.

Arthur Grudko

DrDave · Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:36 pm Post subject:

Hi Jay,

It is very common for players to report an improvement in their playing on a regular mouthpiece after using a Wedge, even for as little as a few hours in some cases. The shift in the embouchure to a more efficient setup translates over to the conventional piece. I have had teachers describe hearing an improvement in a student's sound on their regular mouthpiece after a single lesson on the Wedge. It is a bit strange.

Arthur may be right, in that you might have in time overcome the endurance and accuracy issues. However, the kinds of issues you are experiencing may indicate that you just need a slight adjustment in size, or a custom piece with a little less lateral dip. Even though your size trial has been over for a while you should send me an email and we can reactivate it to see if an exchange would help, or if a custom piece with less lateral dip would be better for your endurance. There would be no charge for switching, even to the custom piece. Just shipping as usual. I don't want you to get stuck with a mouthpiece that is no quite right for you.

Cheers,
Dave
_________________
Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

Tim McGinley · Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject:

Hey Dr. Dave and fellow wedge heads. I am currently using Warburton backbores on my wedges and am thinking about going over to wedge backbores. I am wondering if anyone can offer some opinions on how much the two makes differ. I thought about making the SST switch as well but thinking back to my experience with other SST mouthpieces feeling too "hard" on my chops I am not quite sure about that yet. I would be interested in hearing what folks have to say about going from standard to SST.
Thanks for your input folks!

DrDave · Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:59 pm Post subject:

Hi Tim,

I happens that Arthur (above) started on a brass Wedge and changed to a SST model, so he may be able to help you.

Most players report that the Wedge backbore feels a bit more stable than the Warburton. Some like it for the ability to change shanks for gap adjustment. Some players still prefer the Warburtons, but when I send out both on a size trial the Wedge out sells the Warburton about 4 to 1. But that could be partly the "cool factor" of how the Wedge looks.

At the ITG I will be introducing some new models. These will include some new signature tops and a line of regular weight backbores with the same inner dimensions as the current Wedge backbores, but with a weight just slightly heavier than stock Warburtons.

Cheers,
Dave
_________________
Dr. Dave
www.wedgemouthpiece.com

gutlo · Regular Member Joined: 10 Feb 2006 Posts: 86

[quote="Tim McGinley"]Hey Dr. Dave and fellow wedge heads. I am currently using Warburton backbores on my wedges and am thinking about going over to wedge backbores. I am wondering if anyone can offer some opinions on how much the two makes differ. I thought about making the SST switch as well but thinking back to my experience with other SST mouthpieces feeling too "hard" on my chops I am not quite sure about that yet. I would be interested in hearing what folks have to say about going from standard to SST.
Thanks for your input folks![/quote]

If your experience is anything like mine, go for it. As the good Doctor said, I changed from a Wedge/Warburton setup to the SST Wedge/Wedge backbore. Tremendous improvement. Single biggest improvement was the predictability of attack. Very secure, note to note, much less tendency to clam. Very easy to attack a high note quietly.

Arthur Grudko