New Mouthpiece: The Wedge

kramergfy · Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:12 pm Post subject:

This is interesting reading about how the Wedge requires a forward, pucker style embouchure.
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patdublc · Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:25 pm Post subject:

Foxytrpt · Veteran Member Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 277

Does it take more man hours to make one wedge mpc compared to other manufacturers?
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etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6180

Matt Graves · Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:37 am Post subject:

etc-etc:

Not all Wedge Mouthpieces are stainless steel. In fact, stainless steel is special order. The regular order is brass with silver or gold plating. You make the choice of which model to order and which metal, brass or stainless steel. Of course, stainless steel is not plated. The stainless takes a little longer to make but the time is minus the plating you have on the brass models. The brass models have an extra step or two to make the wedge shape. Generally, that's it in a nutshell. The difference in time from other "round" manufacturers is negligible since wait time with manufacturers generally depends on how many orders are in line waiting to be done (and the wonderful efficiency of whatever delivery service).
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DrDave · Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:59 pm Post subject:

Hello everyone. I thought I would join in here.

Making a Wedge is indeed more complex than most other mouthpieces. Most mouthpieces are now programed in a computer and turned on a CNC lathe, the backbore is reamed, then the whole thing is polished and plated.

To make a Wedge the blank is first programed and then turned on a CNC lathe. This forms what most manufacturers would then polish, plate, and sell. However, with the Wedge the blank is then removed from the lathe and placed in a different machine, a CNC mill. This mill requires a second program file to tell the mill how to form the shape of the Wedge rim. Once that step is done there is a visible tool mark where the cutting path of the lathe and the CNC mill meet. This has to be blended in a third polishing process. The the whole mouthpiece is polished and plated.

The trumpet backbore is in two parts, which means there are double the number of parts to program and turn, and twice as many to handle for plating. We use boring bars instead of reamers to make our backbores. This is slower, but produces a very smooth finish and ensures that we do not have problems related to changing dimensions because of tool weer. So compared to most conventional one or two piece mouthpieces there are 3 to 4 extra steps in the manufacturing process. This all takes time.

Stainless steel tops and backbores are now available as regular stock in many of the most popular sizes. We are stocking more and more of these with every production run. Stainless takes 2 to 3 times more time to turn and mill than brass. It actually takes 3 passes of the CNC mill to cut the rim in stainless. Backbores also take longer because stainless is much harder on tools, and poses problems tool breakage and with chip clearance. The price differential between brass and SST does not fully reflect this only because I wanted to control the price as much as possible.

Although stainless does not require plating it does still require polishing. It actually takes more time and costs more money to polish a stainless steel mouthpiece than it does to silver plate one.

We try to keep all sizes in stock at all times. This is a bit of a challenge because there are so many sizes, so we do occasionally run out of some sizes. In order to prevent this we usually have 800 to 1000 components on hand at any given time so that we can ship within a few days. We do a production run as needed every few months, in addition to my daily custom jobs.

We are currently selling about 60 mouthpieces a month, and given that most people do a size trial of 2 mouthpieces, and some will end up trying more, we have to keep a lot of hardware around and in circulation in order to offer the kind of service that we like to provide. We ship on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, simply because we are a staff of only 2 people, (me and my wife Liz), and we both still practice medicine. So usually there is minimal delay in getting a mouthpiece out unless it is out of stock. I can usually get custom jobs out in about a week. This can vary depending on volume from as little as a few days to as much as 2 weeks, but rarely more.

Cheers,
Dave
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spitvalve · Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 7:37 am Post subject:

Matt Graves · Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 8:50 am Post subject:

Boy, Dave, did I minimize your hard work!

In spite of how much work that all sounded like, folks,
Dave has always got the work done for me in a very timely way
with a very cordial manner.

Thanks again, Dave.
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DrDave · Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 10:38 am Post subject:

Hi Matt,

I really didn't feel like you were minimizing anything. I was just filling in the blanks in case people were interested in more details.

Warm regards,

Dave
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razeontherock · Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject:

Well with all that, let me just say that the consistency of Wedge rims is outstanding. No, I mean really. And my best legit sound? After recording more mpcs than I care to admit, into a ribbon microphone 100' away, my Wedge AC wins, hands down.

This is the first I've heard of Wedge b/bs being in stainless. Is the advantage more presence in the sound? (Other than durability)

Ray
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DrDave · Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 8:48 am Post subject:

Hi Ray,

The stainless steel backbores are very new. They accentuate the same effect as a SST top with a faster, brighter response. I find that it is a more compact sound. I would use one primarily for lead, as it is hard to get much warmth out of them, whereas I can color the SST top on a brass backbore.

Cheers,
Dave
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FredBand · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject:

This interests me a lot. And it is quite innovative. CNC is a great technology that we did not have very many years ago. Also it is not inexpensive to buy or maintain. Thanks, Doc, for doing this work.

I do not understand how the metal itself makes a difference in the sound, given that two mouthpieces are of different metals, but of the same exact design and manufacturing specs, and that the metal itself so much thicker than tubing and bells. Anyone want to explain or speculate why this is the case? Sure is a mystery to me.
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FLgargoyle · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:15 pm Post subject:

If you could come to the shop, I could pick up different metals and set them to vibrating with a hammer. The difference in sound and volume is surprising. It's also that way with wood- even within the same species. A good luthier can tap on a piece of wood and tell if it's going to make a great instrument or not. Everything on the horn vibrates, and whether a piece adds too, or subtracts from that resonance has an effect (good or bad) on the end result. It also feels different from the players perspective (perhaps even more so).
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euromilam · New Member Joined: 04 May 2009 Posts: 1

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FredBand · Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 7:04 pm Post subject:

Here's my thought on that. A small piece of metal or whatever type certainly does have a different Sound when hit with a ballpin hammer of course. But what if the vibration is very small andit is energized by a vibrating air column with a pressure of at most a few inches of water. Further is that piece of metal is small compared to the quarter wavelength at which it is vibrating, I would think the total sound power radiated by it would be miniscule. I supose there could be vibration coupling between that small piece of metal and other larger, lighter weight pieces attached to it. Without doing any real experiments, I would think that may have a larger effect than the sound radiated by that small piece of metal (mouthpiece, say). Well, that's only what I would think, having no real idea how to evaluate it in an acoustic lab setting. My mouthpieces are all brass of course.

I'm hoping to gain some further insight on this by bringing up the matter.
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Ambassador Trumpet (1959)
Holton Collegiate Trumpet (FS)
*Couesnon Trumpet (1926)
Mendez Cornet (1959)
Conn Victor Cornet 28A (193?)
*Berkeley Cornet
*Conn Wonder Cornet (1887)
*=unplayable
misc brass (horns, altohorns, baritones, etc)

NickD · Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: SST Metals et al

Fred,

I am in complete agreement with you. To quote my acquaintance form the ITG, Dr. Thomas Moore (physicist), the Science Desk editor of the ITG journal: "A trumpet is not a percussion instrument!"

Yes the metals in a trumpet do vibrate when we play them. They can even be made to resonate independent of the wind column. There are holographic and laser speckle interferograms to prove this. However the difference in sound levels between the sound radiated by the vibrating bell and that of the wind column leaving the bell barrier is on the order of below -100 dB, if my memory of a specific conversation after a physics teachers conference serves me correctly.

This doesn't mean the vibrating metals don't impact our playing. They just don't do it the way most trumpeters think they do. Moore offered me this explanation.

When the horn vibrates, it can shake the mouthpiece which then shakes the lips a bit. This is added feedback to the lips in addition to that offered by the reflected wave in the resonating wind column. So adding a lot of mass to a mouthpiece or changing some aspects of its resilience could change how this feedback is delivered. This can, in turn, affect how the system responds to us and hence its playing characteristics.

So a stainless steel mouthpiece might have some subtle affect this way. Personally, I couldn't tell a lot of difference with SST with just the upper part on a brass bb. However, I did notice a difference with a whole (upper part AND bb) SST mouthpiece. So, FOR ME, if the SST upper part on a brass bb affects the timbre and playing qualities by virtue of being SST, it is quite subtle. I would argue that it COULD, by virtue of the reasons discussed.

Now, all this having been said, I must say that I LOVE my SST mouthpieces I've gotten from Dr. Dave! They are fantastic! I prefer them to silver as they don't tarnish or get sticky. I prefer them to gold as they don't deteriorate (gold is soft and scrapes off eventually) and gold is TOO slippery! SST is the best stuff from which a mouthpiece could be madce, IMHO!!

When I combine this with Dave's design's, and I've got a really wonderful mouthpiece! You should check these out.

FWIIW, coming from me!

Nick
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NickD · Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 5:41 am Post subject: Another thought...

In addition to my last remarks, idea of a luthier or a guitar maker testing woods by tapping them makes perfect sense for a guitar or lute. The strings radiate almost no sound as they can't move that much air. The string vibrations - harmonics and all - get transfered into the face plate via the bridge. Sound posts cause the back plate to vibrate as well. So, the nature of the wood is of extreme importance since it wood that is radiating the sound and the wood also resonates at the frequencies played.

A trumpet is a wind column instrument. The timbre is determined primarily by the shape of the wind column. According to "old school acoustic theory" the nature of the metal should have no effect. However, based on the idea of mechanical feedback, the nature of the metal in the trumpet can have a subtle effect. However, I don't think there is any significant acoustic radiation from the vibrating bell. Also, I don't think the resonant frequencies of the vibrating metal match the wind column resonances.

FWIIIW coming from me...

Nick
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FredBand · Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject:

If this is true for a trumpet, then seems to me it must be even more of an effect from larger, lower pitched instruments, particularly the tuba. There's a lot of vibration going on there. Of course the mouthpiece is much heavier.
_________________
Ambassador Trumpet (1959)
Holton Collegiate Trumpet (FS)
*Couesnon Trumpet (1926)
Mendez Cornet (1959)
Conn Victor Cornet 28A (193?)
*Berkeley Cornet
*Conn Wonder Cornet (1887)
*=unplayable
misc brass (horns, altohorns, baritones, etc)

severinsen · Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject:

Well...nobody has posted on this thread for quite sometime. It is this thread that has got me interested in the Wedge. I used to be an active player, but put my horn down a year ago and would only pick it up once in a blue moon. For various reasons, my interest has reignited...mainly cause I found a new band to play with...which has lead to more potential bands.

I talked to Dave again tonight and made the choice to try a 3CC and a 3C top with his heavy 27M and 27ML backbores. I have tried almost every mouthpiece out there...GR, Monette, Bach (a given), Kanstul, etc... but always came back to my Warburton 4M/9 series 80.
If anybody is interested, I will give a review as soon as I test the new MP. Maybe even post some pics of it on my 24K brushed gold Lawler STS.

Paul.Trumpet · Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:54 am Post subject:

In the past I have tried everything I could lay my hands on. The best fit recently has been the Curry 3C. and the Warburton 4MC/9 in an 8310Z.

However, due to allergies and unstable playing I tried a Wedge 5CC sst. This was too round, uncomfortable and tight. I thought to myself "it looks like a toilet seat and plays like one"... but then I tried it in my very open C trumpet, puckered as far as I could and played it for a while with a corner air leak. It made that trumpet sound SO much better with a dense core and an excellent sound. Then I tried the 4MC again, some of the improvements from playing the Wedge were still there, the rim shape had somehow improved the focus of my lip aperture. BIG news.

A few emails later Dr Dave sent me two more tops, a Warburton 4MC wedge rim and 4MD with G rim, less lateral dip at the corners. The W4MDG was a big improvement. Perhaps more interesting was the 27ML weighted backbore, which gapped perfectly and improved the sound of any warburton top placed on it. I have since ordered 3 more on trial.
It was not obvious from the first play test but became obvious over a few days. I first thought it was not so good and then realised it was great but just too tight blowing.

My problem with the wedge has been adapting to the radical shape and changing my embouchure to work with it. I've only had the W4MDG a week and hope to play it out this weekend. Recently I have found my lips seem to vibrate better in the top and I've gone down a backbore size from the 9 to the 8. There are muscles in my face getting VERY tired because I can play for longer without any issues.

So I would say the Wedge has not endowed any magic abilities but has so far improved my comfort, endurance, sound and attacks. Range has NOT improved at all and actually went down a little before recovering.

Finally, I would like to point out it was no mean feat that Dr Dave read my complaints about the 5CC not fitting and cooked up the W4MDG as a custom job - I did not ask for it, he just made it and it fits.

I could quite literally write down here that every new day the Wedge seems to get better and something adjusts for the better - so much so that 7 days from getting the part, any normal flat rim feels horrible to play on. One day there was a blip in the progress and things felt worse, but that could be due to anything, most likely placing the mouthpiece.

Even now if it all goes wrong and I end up back on perfectly acceptable Warburton delrin tops, I'll be using a Wedge heavy backbore. To my ears it makes more improvement to the core of sound than a custom tuning slide or heavy valve caps - and would apply to all players using flat rims. (I'm not a lead or high note specialist)

My vote is that Dr Dave's products are superbly made and have improved my playing and health.