Theory about too shallow of a mouthpiece

Mr. Benge · Veteran Member Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 231

So, let's say a guy has played on standard size (3c-7c) mouthpieces his whole life and decides to try something a bit shallower. He finds that it makes the job easier and can play well on it but finds that after extended periods of playing, his lips swell and he has to struggle to finish the night. The next day, practice does not go well or as long as it could because of condition of lips. Not to mention, that nights gig, next days practice, next nights gig, so on and so forth are not as good as they should be. Once a few days off are taken, everything feels good again due to a reduction of swelling. Does it makes sense for one to look at this and say, there is no way this person will be able to build up any endurance on this mouthpiece because the lips are swelling and quality of playing is deteriorating prematurely?

butxifxnot · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 2353

(Assuming the guy is you) My guess is that you're overblowing the shallow piece. So I'd say the mouthpiece is too shallow for you. You may want to either go one/a few steps less shallow or move up to a bigger rim size (in addition to the shallower cup) to add more volume to the cup.
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deleted_user_fdb91a0 · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

The minimum mouthpiece depth one can successfully use is dependent upon one's embouchure technique, as well has how much pressure one needs to use in order to perform.

Lots of pressure means lots of swelling. The need to use large amounts of pressure is an indication that the embouchure technique being employed is defective in some way.

hefferson · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Aug 2008 Posts: 164

Does this same person get lots of lip swelling from the original mouthpiece 3c-7c?

Using a different size mouthpiece, big or small, can require a bit of an acclimation period for the lips. I believe the swelling would be due to unnecessary pressure. That pressure being put on a smaller space due to the smaller mouthpiece could explain why the days after would be so off the norm. Just an idea.
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trumpetwinds · Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject: Shallow Mouthpieces

Players who use shallow mouthpieces are cheating. Most of the time, their sound is tiny and thin, ducky sounding and somewhat annoying. Nothing less than a C cup please! Anything less than a C cup stifles the warmth and volume (amount not loudness) of the tone.
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kanemania · Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject:

I beg to differ, Mr. TrumpetWinds.

Shallow pieces aren't cheating. They're like push-up bras. With the right person, the results can be magnificent.

hefferson · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Aug 2008 Posts: 164

EdMann · Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject:

Do what some clinicians like Wayne and other have said in regard to shallow pieces, "Here," he passes the mpc to an attendee, "go ahead and cheat."

ed

trmptz · Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Shallow Mouthpieces

Lawler Bb · Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject:

LeeC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5730

cheiden · Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject:

To the OP, a properly working mouthpiece allows you to compress but also to relax enough to allow your chops to recover. I find that the swelling you describe happens when the mouthpiece is to tight or shallow or had an unconfortable alpha angle preventing the lips from ever relaxing. Most notorious for me was the Schilke xA4a series.
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jrtrp · Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject:

lipshurt · Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject:

OP....
you need to go to a smaller diameter as well as shallower.

If your lips are swelling it cuz you are pressing when you get excited.

what are you playing on?

If it has a lot of "undercut" (low alpha angle) that could be letting you push too hard too. Better to learn to play a lead piece with a high alpha angle like a bobby shew or schilke 13a4a or monette BL2 etc

those wont let you push hard enough to get in the bind you are in.

Doug M
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butxifxnot · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 2353

shofarguy · Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:01 pm Post subject:

I tried to go smaller than a 3C for about 6 months. I tried a 3E and 3D. The 3D was good for awhile, but in the end, I could not keep from bottoming out at the end of a long 6 hour Sunday morning.

I don't use too much pressure, but I do use a fair amount of airflow, I guess. I have more than enough lung capacity to play any phrase that I could sing, if necessary, so I think that is good enough.

As I continue to use free-lip buzzing, I find that I do better in all ranges with a deeper cup. I can use either a CG3 (similar to Bach 3C) or the deeper CG Personal.

I'm not a lead player, but my range is getting better. Endurance is fine for what I do and tone is good.

This is 180 degrees out from most players here, but so be it. I just can't seem to make what they say work for me. I just thought I'd give my own perspective and experience in case your one of the "freaks" like me who isn't like the majority of players.

Brian

p.s. I'm not trying to put anyone down, so no need to flame me. I simply find that I have to play differently than the "smaller is better" crowd to get the best results.
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trumpetwinds · Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:27 pm Post subject:

You have it all backwards my friend, the amatuer guys who use shallows are the ones who can't play high on a regular mouthpiece...I can get a double high C, even a d and eb on my Schilke 13c4 and I can use those notes when I need them. However, I play in a community band and occasionally get called for the orchestra...i don't need those notes all the time, and unless you are just soloing in jazz or recording commercials in a studio, you don't need it either, Wayne has his niche as do most other professional players, I dont play like Wayne and never will, I need a mouthpiece that sounds good playing the Nutcraker or Spoon River or Sailors and Whales or any of a number of other great pieces

Adam V

trumpetwinds

I have no idea what you sound like, but I bet you wouldn't use that shallow mouthpiece in a symphony, i wouldn't...you wouldn't blend well with the group....I guess shallow pieces are fine if you are just doing rock and screaming all night

trumpetwinds · Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Shallow Mouthpieces

Do you play the same gigs as Maynard?