Remedies for Sticking Valve

[skip77]

Fellow trumpeteers, please pardon if this is a repeat topic, which I suppose it to be. I had my Old's Ambassador modified by Jason Harrelson - he did a splendid job and I am more than satisfied. When I sent the trumpet it had a valve sticking problem - all 3 valves were sticky regardless of my best cleaning efforts. I looked carefully at pistons for scratch patterns for evidence of metal-metal interactions but found none.

On receipt of the trumpet from Jason, I found to my delight that all 3 valves were slick and lively while all slides had better pop than before. When I asked Jason what he had done to remedy the valve sticking problem, he said he had done nothing other than a good cleaning! I was surprised to hear this.

A couple weeks after that, the 1st valve started to stick again. I cleaned it and the valve casing with no improvement. I asked Jason if I should buff the piston using a muslin ragwheel and fine polishing paste on my lathe motor but he advised against that. I do not know what to do but the horn is unusable until I can resolve it.

I value suggestions from you fine people. I am asking you before I trouble Jason again about this. If I can solve the problem myself, I prefer to do that. Maybe I am not cleaning the pistons correctly? All my life I have only used a drop of dish washing soap in a cup of warm water - have never had this problem. I hope you folk can help.

[jazz_trpt]

Make sure to run a small piece of swab cloth through the valve casings as well. Mouthpiece brushes are very good at loosening large pieces of crud in the valves, but not so good at getting the small stuff all cleared out of the valve cylinder.
_________________
Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!

[Drizzt]

I clean and oil regularly and mine stay fine... Maybe you are not pressing it down straight enough? A remedy I can suggest is to stretch out all your springs a bit. Experiment and see what you like, but make sure they stay an equal length and be sure not to bend the wrong way. They will in turn respond faster and shouldnt stick anymore.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 180S-37 ML

Schilke 13C4

[skip77]

I was wondering if stretching the spring a little might be helpful. Will give it a try - worst to worst would be that I over stretch and have to order new springs for all valves. No biggie. The valve case cleaning brush I have is kind of soft, like cotton yarn - is that the kind you guys are using? Seems I might need something a little stiffer to do a better job? I have always wondered if the soft yarn type brush is leaving fibers behind that might help clog up the works? Thanks for your suggestions.

[LittleRusty]

My son's valves were sticking also. I asked my repair guy to look at it and he told me it was due to not being cleaned properly. He cleaned them and they worked for a short while.

Then they started sticking again. Cleaning would help for a very short period of time.

So at the advice of my brother in law who plays tuba professionally I took a small tab of toothpaste and worked the valve for a while. I then did a very full cleaning to remove all of the paste.

As far as I know they are still working well.

[Drizzt]

[pipedope]

If one person cleans the valves and they work great, then someone else cleans them and they stick.
Go to the first person to SHOW you how THEY clean the valves.

They are doing something different and that is the key.
Are you using the same oil they used when they did the horn?


You probably know these things but I will put them out to cover the bases.

Make sure no lint or other fibers are left in the casings or on the valves.
Keep slide grease away from the valves.

[KingSilverSonic]

I second Little Rusty. On an Olds Ambassabor I would take some toothpaste and gently smear it on the piston, gently insert the piston along with a dab of water, lock it in place and move the piston up and down a few times. Wash well, oil and see what happens.
_________________
Richard

Lawler C7
Burbank Benge C
Calicchio 1s/2
King Symphony 20 DB and Silver Sonic Cornet
Lawler flugelhorn
Member: Bugles Across America

[JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR]

Rusty's got it right. Tooth paste is ever so slightly abrasive. Use a small amount on the inner cylinders and/or the pistons themselves. Do this in very short increments so you don't overdo it, then be certain to get all the paste residue off. This simple trick has worked on many sticky valves for me (not all though) and it has never damaged one yet.

Some of you are familiar with "lapping" the valves. This is done with something called lapping compound. It is a paste that is significantly more abrasive than toothpaste, and it is used as described above. Only a pro should use it though, as it is so abrasive that a layperson could easily over-do it and go "too far". Not much to fear with small amounts of toothpaste though. Just be sure to go slowly and then later clean it all out thouroughly.

King Silver's method is fine too. The spot where the piston is rubbing against the cylinder is particularly isolated and helped in this manner. Just be gentle and do it little by little...

Your Friend, Tom in Texas
JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR
_________________
7 Monettes, 9 Taylors, 8 Courtois, 8 Stomvis
7 Lawlers, 4 Leblancs, 3 Bessons, 3 Kanstuls
2 Blackburns, 9 Schilkes, 8 Bachs, 5 Selmers
8 Yamahas, 5 Committees, 2 Edwards Gen X
4 Marcinkeiwicz, 9 Harrelsons, and 4 Eclipses

[mikeman7]

[skip77]

Thanks again to all. I am grateful for time taken by each of you and no suggestion is too fundamental to have worth - good stuff! I do not pretend perfect or even professional technique but having played trumpet since 1965 and owned trumpets, cornets and flugels by 12 makers yet never having a valve sticking issue until now, I feel safe in saying it's not from pushing the pistons at wrong angle - but that is certainly a good point - thanks mikeman7.

I like the toothpaste idea and grasp the value immediately. I will start with the method of using the valve piston itself to polish the area of closest contact, by pushing up and down. If that doesn't get it cleaned up, I'll try some paste with light rubbing. If that doesn't work, I'll inquire with Jason about his cleaning method. Last resort, I'll consider the spring stretching idea. If I remember correctly, Jason suggested that sticking might be coming from the felt/button interface but I don't think it is that in this case because the valve sticks before full compression. More later and thanks again - you guys are the best!

[trptdaddy]

I just bought some of these off eBay. Had one years ago. I had a sticking second valve on my Calicchio that I recently bought. Cleaning, wiping, oil, oil, oil and even different types of oils after cleaning did nothing. Last week I wiped down the valve (was going to do the casing if that didn't work) with a Miracle Cloth. Didn't even wash it afterwards. Just wiped it very well with a clean cloth. Have played it now every day for a week. No signs of sticking at all. The cloth also made the raw bass horn look new.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180158297527

David

[HermitTrumpet]

I had the same problem with deposits gumming up the valve-works. There was a visible discoloration on my valves, mostly on the third valve.

The least damaging way I found to remove the deposits was to use one of those synthetic gum erasers (the white ones, made by Pentel and probably others) to remove the crud, with no chance of any abrasive changing the profile of the valve.

Eventually, I found out that my body chemistry was reacting with the valve oil. After changing the oil, the problem went away.

Anything abrasive gives me the willies! I spent too much on my horn to risk damaging the valves. If you sand off the deposits without changing the chemistry, they'll just build up again. (I wore out a few erasers) You can always grind the valves later, if the simple, non-destructive techniques fail.
_________________
-Walt

[skip77]

The Micracle Cloth sounds like an interesting possibility - thanks for the link. I had a funny feeling about the oil Jason might have used on the pistons - they were slick and efficient with his oil, whatever kind it might be. Back here, possibly some pH factor played a role in chemically changing the oil when it started to mix with saliva. I drink a lot of soda and it is possible that my saliva is more acidic than most.

I worked for Reichhold Chemicals Emulsion Polymers Division for more than 8yrs once upon a time - R&D. I learned there that depending upon the type of polymer or surfactants making the emulsion, various chemicals affected stability. For some, alcohol would cause the polymer to precipitate and coagulate. Others became unstable with the addition of salt. Other emulsions became more and more viscous under acidic conditions. That could be exactly what is happening when my valve sticking problem - never thought of such a thing before.

If there is remnant acidic level in my mouth from drinking a soda, it could possibly effect the stability of the valve oil and make it become more viscous. Also, obviously, it isn't wise to play trumpet with higher acid levels in ones saliva - might cause corrosive effects on some metal parts depending on the alloy. I guess I should make sure to rinse my mouth out well with water before playing. It's a thought.

To follow up I will ask Jason what valve oil he used and while I'm at it, his method for cleaning the valves. This could put me on the right track. I like the thought from hermitrumpet about some solutions only treating symptoms as opposed to correcting the problem. Good suggestions again by all - thanks much.

[carltrumpet]

This might not be the case - but just thought I'd throw it out there....

I've heard that some valve oils react with one another and can 'gunk' things up.

Also, don't worry about over-stretching your valve springs. You can always compress them between your thumb and index finger and massage them back down again by rolling them with a circular motion.

One other thing, which was the case with a recently aquired horn of mine: The leadpipe and bell were bent slightly, probably someone removing a stuck mouthpiece. This translated to a first valve that stuck due to the microscopic twist to the valve casing. After the horn was bent back into shape, the problem went away.

Just my 1.333333 cents.

[johnmarkpainter]

Skip,

ONE Sticky valve would suggest a mechanical problem. If they all stick, then it would be systemic.

I have an 80's Yamaha that has a recurring sticky valve issue.
Ultrapure Oil makes a BUG difference. That horn hates Al Cass Oil.

What did Jason do to your Horn? I have an Ambassador that I love and have been interested in having it upgraded. I use Harrelson Heavy Caps as well as a couple of their Mouthpieces.

jmp

[skip77]

carltrumpet - thanks very much for your ideas. I've wondered if I might have gotten a reaction from Jason's oil and my own. I used some old oil that I have, old enough that the original blue color is turned clear. Maybe it reacted with the oil Jason had used. I doubt there is twist in the horn causing impingement on valve - although I don't doubt it could happen.

Jason replaced the bell, main tuning slide, leadpipe, spit valves, valves caps, finger buttons and all bracing - full mod to Muse. For anyone that has never actually seen Jason's work or played it, trust me, what he does is truly World Class and no surprise, since Jason himself is a World Class individual. Johnmarkpainter - you should develop a thread of communication with Jason about your Ambassador. He will bring all he knows about horn design to your particular application and playing style etc. In my case, I asked for full mod to Muse but asked Jason to do whatever he felt necessary to maximize efficiency. tone and playability with the horn. He did a fantastic job. You will be in line waiting for Jason to get to your horn so you'll have to be patient - hardest part was waiting for the actual work-date to come. It was well worth the wait, however.

Interesting that you mentioned UltraPure oil - exactly what Jason used on my horn. I got email response from Jason this morning - he used UltraPure oil on my horn and offered to send a bottle for free if I didn't have any - see what I mean? World Class person doing World Class work. Jason recommended that I try a micro-clothe called VROOM on the valve piston/casing and to avoid any kind of abrasive treatment, even toothpaste. He said VROOM is lint-free and available at Walmart and other chains. Will try it.

Remember that all 3 of my valves were sticking before sending the horn to Jason. Now only #1 sticks. Thanks again for all your feedback. I will report final outcome.

[ewetho]

[skip77]

Well, before I go to any more trouble, I'll clean the valves the same ol way I always have and apply some Al Cass oil - I have some of that. Just remembered that I tried Trumpet Juice Deluxe Valve Oil over Jason's UltraPure, first. Piston started sticking. I cleaned it and tried the old BlueJuice next. I'll do a thorough clean and try Cass oil. Thanks for the story ewetho.

[Craig Swartz]

Don't buff the valve!

I use Flitz, Wenol or DuPont No.7 (mild abrasive) on the pistons, it can be used on auto paint so I doubt it will damage monel or nickle plating which is much harder. A good 12 ga bore swab and Tinex chamber brush (shotgun stuff) will work in the casings, you may need to add a little compound there as well. Then make sure to get it all out.

Check around the ports in the pistons and casings as well, that is often where something is hung up or where a tiny piece of plating will come loose. It doesn't take much! Check also around the top and bottom surfaces of the piston itself- if you feel anything at all other than a smooth surface there will need to be attention there as well.

These beginner horns, even from the "quality" makers have gotten maddening in the past 5 years or so. Either they haven't been flushed properly to remove the other manufacturing compounds or the valves haven't been properly lapped. My best results have been with Getzen student line brass, although here in da 'hood it's becoming rare for a kid to rent an instrument. They end up with something old from a pawn shop, usually more servicable than the new stuff I see.