• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Does Chicago lend its self well to Gordon?


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Chicago School
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
_trumpetgod_02
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Sep 2002
Posts: 1126
Location: Tampa Bay area

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey,


I was just wondering. I am pretty familiar with Gordon. But not so much with Chicago style. I took a lesson with a chichowitz student once. They seem to be able to have a little give and take to them.

Nick
_________________
www.trumpetherald.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
elbobogrande
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2002
Posts: 1222
Location: Tucson, AZ

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering the same thing, actually. I'm in the process of finding a new teacher, and I'm the former student of a Chicowitz student. I talked to a student of Gordon just the other day and he didn't seem to think there would be that much of a problem (a large adjustment for me) if I were to study with him. We didn't get into great detail or anything, but I'm going to investigate this further as I get into having lessons with a new teacher.
Hope this helps a little,
John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
_trumpetgod_02
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Sep 2002
Posts: 1126
Location: Tampa Bay area

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey,

Thanks. As far as I am aware. Bith do not place a large emphasis on the physical aspects of playing. They do to some degree yes. But not as much as others. I could see them working together rather well actually.

Nick
_________________
www.trumpetherald.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
mafields627
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Nov 2001
Posts: 3571
Location: AL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always thought that Chicago style was more of a mindset, or sound quality, than an actual method to playing. Those who are more knowledgable please correct me if I'm wrong.
_________________
--Matt--

No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tcutrpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 794
Location: Great Lakes, IL

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's most definitely a school of thought and playing method. It doesn't involve technical exercises. It relies on Clarke and Arban to get the technique out of the way. The Chicago School is all about singing through the instrument and making music the one and only priority. Having a clear concept of sound in your head (pitch and timbre) and then just letting go and playing the note is the basic idea. Arnold Jacobs was amazing at changing the way people played in as little as one lesson because he changed their thought process to focus on music. Technique should still be practiced, but when it's performance time, the only thought you should have should be on the music.

Matt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
70md2475
New Member


Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 2
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There seems to be a lot of mystique about the "Chicago School." I like the way Charlie Geyer describes it best..............Everyone, Arnold Jacobs, Farkas, etc. were trying to analyze and figure out how Herseth did what he did/sounded the way he did. Jacobs actually got the "Song" from his "Wind and Song" approach from Herseth. Jacobs would always be coming up to Herseth, asking Bud how he did what he did, always sounded so fantastic, etc. Apparantly this would kind of irritate Herseth. After one performance he (Jacobs) went up to Herseth and asked "What are you thinking about when you are playing?" Herseth bluntly answered "How it goes!" Before this, Jacobs primary focus was on respiration, and the physical aspects of playing. It all goes back to Herseth!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Nonsense Eliminator
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 5196
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding of Claude Gordon's teaching is that it involved a certain amount of focus on physical processes, such as tongue level. That approach is completely foreign to the "Chicago school". This is a disagreement that is generally pretty much non-negotiable: You're in or you're out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
_Don Herman
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3344
Location: Monument, CO, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Compatible, sure, as long as you're focusing on music (whether it's a scale or a concerto) when you play. The "tongue level approach" may not sit well, as it distracts you from the music. But, you'll find virtually every "system" ultimately emphasizes song and wnd in some fashion.

As was mentioned, it's more a mental approach to playing than anything else. Doesn't mean we neglect the physical, by a long shot, but rather use music to guide physical development, rather than other means.

HTH - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
musicmonkey
Veteran Member


Joined: 01 Jan 2002
Posts: 344

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread seems to be a very good collection of people's interpretations of the Chicago school....very helpful!

In fact, I kind of like the ideas presented here, but I do have a couple questions.

If there is no focus on technical playing, how does one develop problem areas? If I had poor range, how would a Chicago school teacher help to overcome this problem? It seems that technical exercises like lip slurs would be best here, would the Chicago school disagree?

Also, are there any books/what are the best books written by teachers of the Chicago school?

I realize these questions have probably already been covered somewhere, but I'd greatly appreciate any insight.

mm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
_trumpetgod_02
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Sep 2002
Posts: 1126
Location: Tampa Bay area

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything by Vince Chichowitz would work well enough.
_________________
www.trumpetherald.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
tcutrpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 794
Location: Great Lakes, IL

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Cichowicz Flow Studies book is great to have. It is out of print, but ask around at local universities. I know there are a lot of copies floating around.

Matt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
_Don Herman
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3344
Location: Monument, CO, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey mm,

Yes the questions have been covered -- check out this very forum for more details. I'll try to hit the high points below. Please note that these are my opinions, and I'm a long way from really working all this out myself, let alone trying to teach it...

1. Physical issues are (or, can be) addressed by the teacher's use of appropriate sound models to guide the student's development. Certainly Jacobs would discuss the nitty-gritty when he felt it appropriate, and V.C. made a number of statements along the lines of "do the practice!" My teacher has me working on all kinds of technical stuff, using his sound as a guide with a little extra direction. With a good teacher, simply following the "song and wind" ideas can work wonders. You do have to find a teacher who'll guide your experimenting, rather than just blindly telling you to blow harder. (There are teachers of every system who espouse the philosophy without a real understanding of the underlying issues, and thus fail to provide adequate guidance. Not just in the music field, of course.) What works is different for every student. A good Chicago teacher takes the student's mind off the physical and on the musical, while provide subtle help to develop the student's sound, technique, range, or whatever usually without the student knowing it's happening!

2. There are numerous articles in the ITG journal plus a number online. Look through this forum for more info (can't recall them off the top of my head). Two books I'd suggest are Arnold Jacobs: Legacy of a Master, a collection of students' essays, by M. Dee Stewart (The Instrumentalist Publishing Company, 1987); and, Arnold Jacobs: Song and Wind by Brian Frederiksen (Wind Song Press Limited).

HTH - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
musicmonkey
Veteran Member


Joined: 01 Jan 2002
Posts: 344

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Don, I will continue (I have already begun) to look around this forum for helpful advice.

From what I understand so far, the Chicago school makes a lot of sense. The ideas I've seen so far express what I feel works the best for my personal trumpet development. I will look into getting those books.

Where is the best place to order them online?

mm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tcutrpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 794
Location: Great Lakes, IL

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, check out Portrait of an Artist. It is a CD with Arnold Jacobs playing some music, a few Chicago Symphony tracks, and some tracks from lectures that Mr. Jacobs gave. It is a fairly inexpensive way to learn a great deal about what the Chicago School is all about. When you hear glorious tuba sounds on things like the Scheherazade violin solo, Czardas, and Carnival of Venice, it is impossible to deny that the method works!

Matt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
_Don Herman
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3344
Location: Monument, CO, USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great catch, Matt! I remembered a little later about that CD; it's available from Summit Records (they've a web site, but I don't have the URL handy). The books are available from the Wind Song Press website, or Amazon etc.

HTH - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mcombo
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Nov 2002
Posts: 217
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In both my one-on-one and group lessons with Cichowicz, the piece that continues to have the most profound effect on me is the concept of what it feels like to breathe in a way that allows good music to happen. It was/is profoundly simple, and for that reason I label him enlightened. He described that a well-supported breath uses the same muscles in the same way that they are used when, how we say, eliminating the bowels. As an undergrad who was not as intellectually mature as most, I didn't fully appreciate and integrate this concept until late in my senior year. (Ah - to go back and do it again.)

To this extent, with what I know about Claude Gordon's writings, I believe there are no mutually exclusive elements. Gordon wrote about envisioning the body as a bellows. No harm there. But a previous poster is correct in saying that VC did not work with us on such things as tongue placement, equipment selection, and so forth. My assumption was/is that we wouldn't have been accepted if these were not figured out prior. I DON"T KNOW IF THIS IS THE CASE, but this was my assumption. As such, I did a lot of experimentation with mouthpieces on my own, to great effect. (Thanks to the nearby Evanston Band and Orchestra shop!)

I hope this sheds some light on what went on within the ivory halls on Lake Michigan.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Atomlinson
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 327
Location: Somerset England

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2003 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a quote by Vincent Cichowicz from an article in the Instrumentalist Magazine for Jan 1996 P.27 "Teaching the Concepts of Trumpet Playing":

MUSICAL IMAGE

"Although playing an instrument is a complex activity, too often teachers focus on the complexities instead of finding those directions that simplify the message to guide students to the best solutions. Without a musical image in your mind, the difficulties of performing on an instrument are magnified greatly. Many of us assume that students have a good musical image, but I am amazed at how often this basic element is either absent or fades into the background. Everyone is concerned about respiration, embouchure, and tonguing as separate entities, but it is the musical imagery that pulls this together. All of the component parts of playing are merged by the aesthetic message guiding them. If the musical thought you want to convey is clear in your mind the result will be reflected in the appropriate application of the techniques required to achieve your goal. I always put this concern at the top of the list. Even with young students just hearing a good sound is the beginning of aesthetic thought. If we instill and demonstrate a good basic sound, we will have set them on the correct path. I have a long shelf of books on how to play the trumpet. Most contain valuable information, but many of the specific directions are too highly personalized and complicated to be of much use. By stressing the musical goal we can avoid some of the more torturous descriptions of the requisite physical actions."

The Chicago School in essence.

Is it really as simple as that? I don't think so.

Arnold Jacobs used to compare the human mind and body to a car. He used to say that although there are many complex things going on under the bonnet/hood of a car, there are a few simple controls in the driving compartment. We shouldn't analyze what's going on in the engine compartment. This is assuming that things are working perfectly. But if you've got a faulty spark-plug or the timing belt is out these simple controls aren't going to be a lot of use.

And if it was just about musical imagery, why would you still need to have lessons?

Getting back to the car illustration, I think sometimes a "diagnostic test" has to be done, a problem isolated, and repaired.

Imagining a double high C, or Mendez doing some incredible double tonguing doesn't mean you are going to be able to do it as well. You still have to do the work!

So where do I stand?

Well, I think Jacobs was thinking in terms of a car in good working order.

I think this musical imagery is more for advanced players who have mastered the basic skills and is most valuable in a "performing" situation.

I think it can be useful in the "practice room" situation. But there you have to work on individual elements separately at times and this musical imagery is useful when you put it all back together and play an etude or piece.

Just a few crazy thoughts on a Monday morning.


Andrew Tomlinson






[ This Message was edited by: Atomlinson on 2003-05-05 03:42 ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnski25
Veteran Member


Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew,

I'd have to totally agree with you there. The car methaphor is a great one and you're right in saying if a component is broken, you'd best fix it before you put your foot on the gas. I can't speak for Cichowicz or Jacobs, but I was talking to a trumpet playing friend a few weeks ago who studied with both and he said that when he went to chicago to get help from jacobs, jacobs was more than happy to talk about physical specifics. He had some fundemental problems and Jacobs helped him figure them out with a lot of talk of what was going on physically. He said they didn't talk about song and wind at that point. So I guess it depends what the student needed which dictated which approach Jacob's would take.

some more thoughts for monday morning. did they make any sense?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5670
Location: Bloomington Indiana

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AT-

FANTASTIC post! Bravo.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Nonsense Eliminator
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 5196
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that we need to be very careful about defining what we're talking about here. There is no question that any reputable teacher of any "school" is going to want to address individual elements of playing -- range, tonguing, technique, whatever. Furthermore, any good teacher will identify weaknesses in his or her students and figure out a way to address those shortcomings. However, focussing on certain aspects of playing the trumpet does NOT have to mean worrying about the mechanics behind them. It's not clear to me what AT and John are getting at in this respect. My impression is that they are suggesting mechanical work on the basics, and then stepping away for the "big picture." If that is what is being suggested, I'm not sure I agree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Chicago School All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group